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VewyPhishy - fake cigars

FWIW, I would venture a guess that I have bought more HTF CCs from Robbie than anyone here. I probably can't say the same for Greg, but I have purchased probably 20-30 from him. Other than being classy and respectful gentleman, among other things, they have one thing in common . . . both meticulously care for their cigars. I offer this based on first-hand experience in dealings with them both. All cigars I have received from both of them are in as pristine a condition as possible and obviously handled and stored with care. Thus, I, personally, wouldn't put too much credence in any statement that they have mishandled or not properly inventoried their smokes.
 
Great, now we have everyones opinions of all the players, let's get back to the task at hand.

If Mike doesn't stand up and defend his stance in this thread, then he needs to be banned and the rest will be handled. There will be plenty of people that will offer to make this right, if Mike chooses not to.
 
souldog24ca said:
miamipadronsmoker said:
Wow! Mike I'm really offended by your words and actions here. Is this what you think CP is about? Do you really think I would bamboozle you over a couple of cigars? Mike please respond because I feel an apology is owed.
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And you know this because of your long and enduring tenure here, correct? We're ALL newbies here dude... Just have some respect, you're already winning in this argument, so just keep quiet and wait to see what happens.

Wheelin' and dealin' so much can get you fakes once in a while, okay? Does it suck? Sure does. I've had friends who don't get their money back and the original seller was banned. Them's the ways it goes sometimes. For now, just sit and wait, it'll pan itself out, instead of thrashing about everytime a new development comes in. If all else fails, you can give the fakes to SPIVY since he likes reviewing them. :laugh:
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Souldog my post was a question to Mike since this is the only way I can contact him. Why you needed to chime in with your infinite wisdom is beyond me :rolleyes:
 
I have absolutely no reason to refund the money


I only trust Rob about as far as I can throw him... especially given this situation.




These 2 quotes from vewyphishy in his PM to Rod does not sound like someone who would even consider the possibility of a possible problem. There were 3 people who bought these cigars and at least 2 of them have said they are fake and came from vewyphisy. At the very least come here and give a explanation. To just basically claim that Rob is not to be trusted is just wrong. I doubt that both Rob and Greg both possibly got the cigars mixed up with other sticks they already had. The suggestion that the "bands maybe in question" but the cigars are legit" does not make a lot of sense. This is just my opinion on the facts that are currently available. I hope that this can be worked out for everyone. :thumbs:
 
Moki's points of reason are solid. Everything about the way Mike has handled this has nullified any and all of that reason on his side of the ledger.
 
moki said:
miamipadronsmoker said:
Wow! Mike I'm really offended by your words and actions here. Is this what you think CP is about? Do you really think I would bamboozle you over a couple of cigars? Mike please respond because I feel an apology is owed.
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In fairness, I think Michael could say the exact same thing to you. Let's distill this down a bit.

1) You don't know Michael well, and Michael doesn't know you well.

2) You have some cigars that are demonstrably fake

3) You have some other cigars that may or may not be fake

4) Michael says he got the cigars from a reliable, trusted vendor, and the cigars he sent you are real; since he doesn't know you well, he has no assurance that, several months later, the cigars you're saying are fake are the ones he sent you

5) You, for your part, know for sure that the cigars you're putting forward are what he sent, and at least some of them are fake

See where the problem is? In order to believe you, Michael has to be sure that a person he doesn't know well:

1) Knows what is a real cigar and what is not

2) Kept these cigars entirely separate for several months, and knows exactly which cigars you received from him (and isn't making an honest mistake mixing cigars together)

3) Isn't up to anything nefarious, jumping on the bandwagon trying to scam him

Now, you know these things are not accurate... but he doesn't know that; he doesn't know you well. For your part, in order to believe him, you have to be sure that a person you don't know well:

1) Knows what is a real cigar and what is not

2) Kept track of his inventory accurately all of these years, never mixing trusted vendor sourced cigars with cigars obtained elsewhere (and isn't making an honest mistake mixing cigars together)

3) Isn't up to anything nefarious, trying to unload fake product on a newb

You see why we're at a stand-still on this? It's two sides of the same coin, both of which involve a leap of faith, and issues of trust.

I'm certainly not going to be able to sit here and decide exactly what transpired; I just don't have enough information. All I can say for sure is that some of the cigars pictured in this thread are fake, and some may be fake.

I will say that the fact that more than one person who purchased cigars from Michael has stepped forward to show fake cigars that they say were purchased from him do lend credence to their side of the argument... but the three issues I outlined above remain.

Lest anyone think otherwise, I'm not making apologies for anyone here. I don't think this was handled well by Vewyphishy, and I also think it could have been handled better by the buyers (if you think something is fake, say so right away... if you're not sure if something is fake or not, don't buy it).

My advice for Cuban cigar buyers remains:

http://www.vitolas.net/displayimage.php?pos=-1021

So what do I think probably happened? I think probably Vewyphishy accidentally sold fake cigars to you guys, and is taken aback by the response because he believes he obtained them from trusted vendors. How this happened, I don't know... my guess would be mixing up the cigars with cigars he obtained elsewhere, or fakes really were obtained from a vendor (yes, Virginia, there have been cases of trusted vendors introducing fakes into the pipeline, either wittingly or unwittingly).

I do not think Michael is trying to take advantage of anyone, despite his curt responses via PM. Just IMHO.

I've seen it go both ways with someone said they bought a box of cigars from a particular trusted vendor (two different vendors involved here):

1) In the first instance, I contacted said vendor, and they had no record of them purchasing those cigars from

2) In the second instance, they did indeed buy the cigars from the vendor they mentioned, and the vendor replaced the cigars
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Thanks for your constructive response Andrew however I find some of the reasoning a bit flawed. There is no bandwagon here. I contacted Mike out of concern. As I have stated previously Mike helped me out when I fist came to CP. I was encouraged to purchase a newbie sampler and Mike came through in flying colors. When I had a question I went to Mike for his advice. A relationship of trust was established IMHO. Mike sold three people, that we know of, said cigars. All three people did not confuse these cigars with others. When I contacted Mike he basically said STFU what the hell do you know NEWBIE! Funny how I see a bit of the same underlying tone throughout this thread albeit in a much nicer way. Andrew, Mikes responses are not just "curt" they are downright offensive and should be seen that way by every member of CP in my opinion. Do I believe that Mike purchased these cigars and did not know they were fake after inspecting them, not anymore. Mainly because of the way he has handled this. I am allowed that opinion. Do I need to be quit now and let this get sorted out? If others continue to post about my business I will feel free to reply when necessary. I agree Andrew I should have checked the cigars more carefully upon receipt. I did not do so in good faith of a previously established relationship which was a huge mistake on my part. I did not view it as a business transaction like I do with vendors. I was not the only one to make this mistake. The proof is in the pudding here. Mike is a tenured, established member and cigar smoker. His reaction and continued non action say more about the transaction that I ever could.
 
miamipadronsmoker said:
Thanks for your constructive response Andrew however I find some of the reasoning a bit flawed. There is no bandwagon here. I contacted Mike out of concern. As I have stated previously Mike helped me out when I fist came to CP. I was encouraged to purchase a newbie sampler and Mike came through in flying colors. When I had a question I went to Mike for his advice. A relationship of trust was established IMHO. Mike sold three people, that we know of, said cigars. All three people did not confuse these cigars with others. When I contacted Mike he basically said STFU what the hell do you know NEWBIE! Funny how I see a bit of the same underlying tone throughout this thread albeit in a much nicer way. Andrew, Mikes responses are not just "curt" they are downright offensive and should be seen that way by every member of CP in my opinion. Do I believe that Mike purchased these cigars and did not know they were fake after inspecting them, not anymore. Mainly because of the way he has handled this. I am allowed that opinion. Do I need to be quit now and let this get sorted out? If others continue to post about my business I will feel free to reply when necessary. I agree Andrew I should have checked the cigars more carefully upon receipt. I did not do so in good faith of a previously established relationship which was a huge mistake on my part. I did not view it as a business transaction like I do with vendors. I was not the only one to make this mistake. The proof is in the pudding here. Mike is a tenured, established member and cigar smoker. His reaction and continued non action say more about the transaction that I ever could.
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Don't mistake our wanting to give Mike time to respond, as special treatment. This was brought out in public yesterday, we need to give him time to respond publicly. Nobody is wearing blinders because of his tenure, it would be the same if a new guy did this.

Everyone agrees that his response was bullshit, it's very obvious, nobody is sticking up for him. There is always 2 sides and you/Greg/Rod have laid yours out very clearly, but to slam the hammer down without a response from Mike wouldn't seem fair.

If he doesn't respond, then let Rod ban him and you guys will be taken care of, I'm sure.
 
miamipadronsmoker said:
Thanks for your constructive response Andrew however I find some of the reasoning a bit flawed. There is no bandwagon here. I contacted Mike out of concern. As I have stated previously Mike helped me out when I fist came to CP. I was encouraged to purchase a newbie sampler and Mike came through in flying colors. When I had a question I went to Mike for his advice. A relationship of trust was established IMHO. Mike sold three people, that we know of, said cigars. All three people did not confuse these cigars with others. When I contacted Mike he basically said STFU what the hell do you know NEWBIE! Funny how I see a bit of the same underlying tone throughout this thread albeit in a much nicer way. Andrew, Mikes responses are not just "curt" they are downright offensive and should be seen that way by every member of CP in my opinion. Do I believe that Mike purchased these cigars and did not know they were fake after inspecting them, not anymore. Mainly because of the way he has handled this. I am allowed that opinion. Do I need to be quit now and let this get sorted out? If others continue to post about my business I will feel free to reply when necessary. I agree Andrew I should have checked the cigars more carefully upon receipt. I did not do so in good faith of a previously established relationship which was a huge mistake on my part. I did not view it as a business transaction like I do with vendors. I was not the only one to make this mistake. The proof is in the pudding here. Mike is a tenured, established member and cigar smoker. His reaction and continued non action say more about the transaction that I ever could.
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Robbie,
So let me make sure I understand, very clearly, your position on this. You got screwed, and are upset about it (understandly as myself and others would be as well), but instead of letting the guys who have been on this board for years, and have seen and dealt with this situation before, handle this, you would rather they step aside and let you handle this in your fashion...which up to this point has been to stomp your feet, make demands, and cut off everyone who has tried to help you.

Do yourself a favor and step back for a minute. Rod, Tone-NY, Kingantz, Moki, Insight, etc have been here and seen this before. As far as I know this is the first time you've been burned. This is a good chance to learn how to handle these situations, but you keep having to put yourself first. Just take a breather, know you aren't the first one and let the guys that know what they are doing...do their thing. No one is accusing you of any wrong doing here as far as I can tell. Let it work itself out. All your accomplishing now is making yourself look bad in a situation that is out of your control, and really not your fault. Follow Greg's example. He posted his facts and stepped back to let the guys who protect this board work on this situation.

Just my friendly advice, you can take it, or you can tell me to go STFU up as well.
 
Bsneed51 said:
miamipadronsmoker said:
Thanks for your constructive response Andrew however I find some of the reasoning a bit flawed. There is no bandwagon here. I contacted Mike out of concern. As I have stated previously Mike helped me out when I fist came to CP. I was encouraged to purchase a newbie sampler and Mike came through in flying colors. When I had a question I went to Mike for his advice. A relationship of trust was established IMHO. Mike sold three people, that we know of, said cigars. All three people did not confuse these cigars with others. When I contacted Mike he basically said STFU what the hell do you know NEWBIE! Funny how I see a bit of the same underlying tone throughout this thread albeit in a much nicer way. Andrew, Mikes responses are not just "curt" they are downright offensive and should be seen that way by every member of CP in my opinion. Do I believe that Mike purchased these cigars and did not know they were fake after inspecting them, not anymore. Mainly because of the way he has handled this. I am allowed that opinion. Do I need to be quit now and let this get sorted out? If others continue to post about my business I will feel free to reply when necessary. I agree Andrew I should have checked the cigars more carefully upon receipt. I did not do so in good faith of a previously established relationship which was a huge mistake on my part. I did not view it as a business transaction like I do with vendors. I was not the only one to make this mistake. The proof is in the pudding here. Mike is a tenured, established member and cigar smoker. His reaction and continued non action say more about the transaction that I ever could.
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Robbie,
So let me make sure I understand, very clearly, your position on this. You got screwed, and are upset about it (understandly as myself and others would be as well), but instead of letting the guys who have been on this board for years, and have seen and dealt with this situation before, handle this, you would rather they step aside and let you handle this in your fashion...which up to this point has been to stomp your feet, make demands, and cut off everyone who has tried to help you.

Do yourself a favor and step back for a minute. Rod, Tone-NY, Kingantz, Moki, Insight, etc have been here and seen this before. As far as I know this is the first time you've been burned. This is a good chance to learn how to handle these situations, but you keep having to put yourself first. Just take a breather, know you aren't the first one and let the guys that know what they are doing...do their thing. No one is accusing you of any wrong doing here as far as I can tell. Let it work itself out. All your accomplishing now is making yourself look bad in a situation that is out of your control, and really not your fault. Follow Greg's example. He posted his facts and stepped back to let the guys who protect this board work on this situation.

Just my friendly advice, you can take it, or you can tell me to go STFU up as well.
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Excellent advice to internalize. Just follow Greg's lead with this matter and let the process work itself out. Mike will either respond accordingly or he won't. Either way Greg and you will be taken care of.

Jim
 
bfreebern said:
Great, now we have everyones opinions of all the players, let's get back to the task at hand.

If Mike doesn't stand up and defend his stance in this thread, then he needs to be banned and the rest will be handled. There will be plenty of people that will offer to make this right, if Mike chooses not to.
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Correct. I have both the Sublimes and the DC ELs, and I will make it right if Michael chooses not to or ignores the issue.

miamipadronsmoker said:
Thanks for your constructive response Andrew however I find some of the reasoning a bit flawed. There is no bandwagon here. I contacted Mike out of concern. As I have stated previously Mike helped me out when I fist came to CP. I was encouraged to purchase a newbie sampler and Mike came through in flying colors. When I had a question I went to Mike for his advice. A relationship of trust was established IMHO. Mike sold three people, that we know of, said cigars. All three people did not confuse these cigars with others. When I contacted Mike he basically said STFU what the hell do you know NEWBIE! Funny how I see a bit of the same underlying tone throughout this thread albeit in a much nicer way. Andrew, Mikes responses are not just "curt" they are downright offensive and should be seen that way by every member of CP in my opinion. Do I believe that Mike purchased these cigars and did not know they were fake after inspecting them, not anymore. Mainly because of the way he has handled this. I am allowed that opinion. Do I need to be quit now and let this get sorted out? If others continue to post about my business I will feel free to reply when necessary. I agree Andrew I should have checked the cigars more carefully upon receipt. I did not do so in good faith of a previously established relationship which was a huge mistake on my part. I did not view it as a business transaction like I do with vendors. I was not the only one to make this mistake. The proof is in the pudding here. Mike is a tenured, established member and cigar smoker. His reaction and continued non action say more about the transaction that I ever could.
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It seems like you didn't fully read my post, and don't understand how the situation is really two sides of the same coin. Stamping your feet indignantly is going to get you nowhere.

Never mind. I rescind my offer to make it right by you if Michael doesn't respond. The offer still stands for KingAntz, however.
 
Bsneed51 said:
miamipadronsmoker said:
Thanks for your constructive response Andrew however I find some of the reasoning a bit flawed. There is no bandwagon here. I contacted Mike out of concern. As I have stated previously Mike helped me out when I fist came to CP. I was encouraged to purchase a newbie sampler and Mike came through in flying colors. When I had a question I went to Mike for his advice. A relationship of trust was established IMHO. Mike sold three people, that we know of, said cigars. All three people did not confuse these cigars with others. When I contacted Mike he basically said STFU what the hell do you know NEWBIE! Funny how I see a bit of the same underlying tone throughout this thread albeit in a much nicer way. Andrew, Mikes responses are not just "curt" they are downright offensive and should be seen that way by every member of CP in my opinion. Do I believe that Mike purchased these cigars and did not know they were fake after inspecting them, not anymore. Mainly because of the way he has handled this. I am allowed that opinion. Do I need to be quit now and let this get sorted out? If others continue to post about my business I will feel free to reply when necessary. I agree Andrew I should have checked the cigars more carefully upon receipt. I did not do so in good faith of a previously established relationship which was a huge mistake on my part. I did not view it as a business transaction like I do with vendors. I was not the only one to make this mistake. The proof is in the pudding here. Mike is a tenured, established member and cigar smoker. His reaction and continued non action say more about the transaction that I ever could.
Click to expand...

Robbie,
So let me make sure I understand, very clearly, your position on this. You got screwed, and are upset about it (understandly as myself and others would be as well), but instead of letting the guys who have been on this board for years, and have seen and dealt with this situation before, handle this, you would rather they step aside and let you handle this in your fashion...which up to this point has been to stomp your feet, make demands, and cut off everyone who has tried to help you.

Do yourself a favor and step back for a minute. Rod, Tone-NY, Kingantz, Moki, Insight, etc have been here and seen this before. As far as I know this is the first time you've been burned. This is a good chance to learn how to handle these situations, but you keep having to put yourself first. Just take a breather, know you aren't the first one and let the guys that know what they are doing...do their thing. No one is accusing you of any wrong doing here as far as I can tell. Let it work itself out. All your accomplishing now is making yourself look bad in a situation that is out of your control, and really not your fault. Follow Greg's example. He posted his facts and stepped back to let the guys who protect this board work on this situation.

Just my friendly advice, you can take it, or you can tell me to go STFU up as well.
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When did I tell anyone to STFU?
 
moki said:
bfreebern said:
Great, now we have everyones opinions of all the players, let's get back to the task at hand.

If Mike doesn't stand up and defend his stance in this thread, then he needs to be banned and the rest will be handled. There will be plenty of people that will offer to make this right, if Mike chooses not to.
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Correct. I have both the Sublimes and the DC ELs, and I will make it right if Michael chooses not to or ignores the issue.
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I'm glad I only bought 2 sticks boxes of each from him!


:blush:
 
Mark Twain said:
Sheesh, Andrew. Why do you have to be so damned reasonable all the time? :D

One point that you brought up is rarely discussed; if you don't know the person buying/selling cigars, then don't be so quick to sell/buy cigars from said person.

This ain't Ebay folks.
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Good point Marc, but in this case, I believe there were other previous transactions between Robbie and Michael. Some level of trust was built and IMO, Michael took advantage of that trust. I'm very skeptical that these cigars did indeed come from reputable sources, those Cohiba bands are just too blatantly fake for a reputable vendor to not notice them.

The central point of this thread is Michael's integrity and him passing fakes. As Moki said, more than just one person have come out to question Michael's cigars, to me, that alone should be enough for him to try to make things right. I can understand his reluctance if it was one buyer, but more than one? That's when you have to protect your integrity and offer refunds to all who bought the same cigars.
 
grateful1 said:
I'm glad I only bought 2 sticks boxes of each from him!


:blush:
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You too, Gary. I'll cover whatever you bought from him if he chooses not to, or ignores the issue. It'll give me a good excuse to open up the boxes anyway. ;)
 
moki said:
grateful1 said:
I'm glad I only bought 2 sticks boxes of each from him!


:blush:
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You too, Gary. I'll cover whatever you bought from him if he chooses not to, or ignores the issue. It'll give me a good excuse to open up the boxes anyway. ;)
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:love:


Now you'll REALLY have to come to Hartford and enjoy a cigar dinner...we may even have to dig up smokelaw1 for an interview! :whistling:
 
Robbie, relax! If you've been around CP for any period of time, you know how issues like this are handled and how things are "made right". Getting mad and not allowing Mike to make this right won't get you anywhere. Relax, take the advice of Moki, Tone-NY, Insight, etc and let this play out, otherwise you'll come out even more behind. Let's not jump the gun, give Mike a fair amount of time, and if he doesn't make right, we'll take appropriate action.
 
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I really hope that those out there in the gallery are watching for the right reasons. This thread is a great teaching point.
If you look and read closely, it cuts right down to the true fabric of what Cigar Pass is all about.
Our (The Cigar Pass) collective azimuth may stray a few degrees to either side, but as a community we are still running true to course.
This is a very bad a nd tense situation indeed, but if you look at what has happened you will see the character of our membership, and more importantly our "leadership"

There was an issue between 2 members that could not be worked out on a man to man level.
It was brought to the attention of the Official and unofficial leadership of CP.
After review and discussion it was brought to the public
all parties involved have been, and will be given the opportunity to make their case.
and while this will end how it will, and no true "justice" or compensation can be forced, all those involved will see that in the end, they are sorted out in a manor that best reflects there situation.

The process works, I have seen it.

Everyone reading, and viewing this thread should take the time to see what is really going on here. It is nothing short than the true cycle and spirit of family.

Sorry that was kinda long.

Tim
 
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