VewyPhishy - fake cigars

[MX]

These things suck, for sure...

But I must say that the public input and discussion in this thread has, for the most part, been very appropriate and constructive.
I buy 90% of my cigars from members or vendors on here. This thread really has opened my eyes as to the possibilities of what can happen.

Tim

 

[mmburtch]

I don't feel I have an obligation to give you a refund. The sticks are legit and if you don't believe that for whatever reason, that's on you. My reputation more than speaks for itself. Feel free not to purchase anything from me in the future. I won't be offended and ultimately, it will be your loss.

For those of you who might have forgotten: Your reputation is only as good as your last transaction.

 

[Jonesy]

See this is where the problem is. This influx of buying and selling here has polluted the cigar inventory you may have.

"I bought these from Joe. Where did Joe get them? He got them from Bob, he's a good guy. I think he buys from x and they have the best prices, but Bob really got these from Willie who gets his stuff from Tony on board x. Tony has a source and he gets some of the best stuff out there. You go from there and you end up where we are now."

The clock is ticking on Mike. I wouldn't hold out for any refunds of money. If he answered you the way he did, it means he doesn't have the money to repay you and doesn't take responsibility for his cigars. This is just another lesson on how things can and do get out of hand.

Anthony,
By no means is this an attack on you. You are one of the members that I look up to on this forum. This is more of a general comment. But I do not agree with this statement about wheeling and dealing. If there were not members who would split boxes up, or sell HTF cigars I would not have half of my cigars. I buy and sell a lot of cigar, but that is part of my collecting/obsessive personality. Like with any purchase you take everything with caution. I generally do my due diligence before ever purchase... and I pass that on when I sell cigars as well. This issue with Mike is a bad one...but it looks to me as an isolated incident. I can not expect every member to act this way...new or old.

Cheers Brother

Ed, I think all Anthony is saying is that during the course of people buying and selling cigars over and over again, it only takes one instance of someone passing on a fake where one person misses it, for the person that does catch it to say "hey, you sold me a fake" and the guy that sold it has no idea what is being talked about because he bought it from someone he thinks he should be able to trust.

Yea, we all get a lot of our cigars from GB's, splits, cross-board sales, etc...., what is being conveyed now is that there are so many members and it seems like as soon as you new guys hit 4 months, it's a free for all in sales.

Just because you take due diligence in the sales of your cigars, doesn't mean that everyone else does.

Now, I would say that those that are just posting to be heard probably need to stop. This is a public discussion and everyone's opinion is deserving of being heard, but how much of this do you think Rod is going to put up with over the course of this thread before he decides to ratchet down on sales of "this" nature to stop these types of problems.

 

[jayro75]

See this is where the problem is. This influx of buying and selling here has polluted the cigar inventory you may have.

"I bought these from Joe. Where did Joe get them? He got them from Bob, he's a good guy. I think he buys from x and they have the best prices, but Bob really got these from Willie who gets his stuff from Tony on board x. Tony has a source and he gets some of the best stuff out there. You go from there and you end up where we are now."

The clock is ticking on Mike. I wouldn't hold out for any refunds of money. If he answered you the way he did, it means he doesn't have the money to repay you and doesn't take responsibility for his cigars. This is just another lesson on how things can and do get out of hand.

Anthony,
By no means is this an attack on you. You are one of the members that I look up to on this forum. This is more of a general comment. But I do not agree with this statement about wheeling and dealing. If there were not members who would split boxes up, or sell HTF cigars I would not have half of my cigars. I buy and sell a lot of cigar, but that is part of my collecting/obsessive personality. Like with any purchase you take everything with caution. I generally do my due diligence before ever purchase... and I pass that on when I sell cigars as well. This issue with Mike is a bad one...but it looks to me as an isolated incident. I can not expect every member to act this way...new or old.

Cheers Brother

Well said Anthony, and what with this idea that shopping at CP should be 100% guarateed satisfaction? Are you guys kidding me?? come on, you don't really believe that do you?

Hell, I wouldn't buy anything from more than half the membership here, that's not to say that wouldn't change once I get to know you.

Caveat Emptor.

Norcal
On a separate note. In my 8 months here, which is quite short, I have never seen members voice concerns about the number of sales being done. Or bring up the "buyer beware" mentality. That is what the 4 month rule is for, and I look at this place as a big ole family where everyone takes care of each other. We do not have people selling cigars for a profit, we generally do not have people selling fakes, and we generally do not have people scamming one another. But everything happens eventually it is the law of averages. Eventually the funk floats to the top. This is not an attack on you, just an observation on your comment about buyer beware. I take A LOT more caution when buying on other boards because the same rules do not apply. Just my two cents.

Cheers Brother

Ed,

I agree with you entirely that purchases, GB's etc. with other members of CP have allowed many of us to access sticks that we may not have had access to otherwise. That's the beauty of this community. That being said even when you do you due diligence there is always the possibility of fakes slipping into the pipeline.

How many cases have we all heard of well known and world respected vendors stocking fake Partagas Piramides. If you were purchasing from one of those shops you would never question their integrity or ability to spot a fake. Yet there they are on the shelf with the genuine article.

When one purchases from a well respected vendor they trust then there is typically no reason to doubt the authenticity of the cigars. So I could see how they could be sold to another member of a forum and maybe the seller not know. Then it becomes a matter of communication between the buyer and seller, and the sellers responsibility to do the right thing.

 

[tone-ny]

I have seen that with the influx of so many new members the buying, selling and trading of cigars has increased. I know that the economy is bad and sometimes the first thing to go is our hobby items. I understand this.

Ed, I see you as new to this hobby and someone that goes and buys a ton of cigars. There is nothing wrong with that many others do that. My concern is that CP is not about buying and selling. It is about a community. If you use CP as a tool to get cigars, then you miss the point.

Eight months is a enough time to know that when I get involved you need to be concerned. If I call you out and I'm not. It is because I have a concern. Rod has stated he will close the the BST forum to those types of cigars. If he does you only have yourselves to blame for it.

 

[grateful1]

Norcal
On a separate note. In my 8 months here, which is quite short, I have never seen members voice concerns about the number of sales being done. Or bring up the "buyer beware" mentality. That is what the 4 month rule is for, and I look at this place as a big ole family where everyone takes care of each other. We do not have people selling cigars for a profit, we generally do not have people selling fakes, and we generally do not have people scamming one another. But everything happens eventually it is the law of averages. Eventually the funk floats to the top. This is not an attack on you, just an observation on your comment about buyer beware. I take A LOT more caution when buying on other boards because the same rules do not apply. Just my two cents.

Cheers Brother

The first part I may understand....but it has been mentioned(al depends on how you read things).

The second part has CLEARLY been brought up....many times in the last 8 months....just 'search' the term!

Now...back to your regularly scheduled program!

 

[bfreebern]

We've turned into a friggin' flea market.

 

[SPIVY]

Ed, I think all Anthony is saying is that during the course of people buying and selling cigars over and over again, it only takes one instance of someone passing on a fake where one person misses it, for the person that does catch it to say "hey, you sold me a fake" and the guy that sold it has no idea what is being talked about because he bought it from someone he thinks he should be able to trust.

Yea, we all get a lot of our cigars from GB's, splits, cross-board sales, etc...., what is being conveyed now is that there are so many members and it seems like as soon as you new guys hit 4 months, it's a free for all in sales.

Just because you take due diligence in the sales of your cigars, doesn't mean that everyone else does.

Brian,
I completely agree with you on these statements. What I was getting at was the part of wheeling and dealing as a whole was bad.

Ed,

I agree with you entirely that purchases, GB's etc. with other members of CP have allowed many of us to access sticks that we may not have had access to otherwise. That's the beauty of this community. That being said even when you do you due diligence there is always the possibility of fakes slipping into the pipeline.

How many cases have we all heard of well known and world respected vendors stocking fake Partagas Piramides. If you were purchasing from one of those shops you would never question their integrity or ability to spot a fake. Yet there they are on the shelf with the genuine article.

When one purchases from a well respected vendor they trust then there is typically no reason to doubt the authenticity of the cigars. So I could see how they could be sold to another member of a forum and maybe the seller not know. Then it becomes a matter of communication between the buyer and seller, and the sellers responsibility to do the right thing.

When this was transpiring, I was talking to Robbie about it. We both brought up what happened with those sticks and that is why he was given the benifit of the doubt. If those few shops were able to conned knowingly or unknowingly...anyone could.

I have seen that with the influx of so many new members the buying, selling and trading of cigars has increased. I know that the economy is bad and sometimes the first thing to go is our hobby items. I understand this.

Ed, I see you as new to this hobby and someone that goes and buys a ton of cigars. There is nothing wrong with that many others do that. My concern is that CP is not about buying and selling. It is about a community. If you use CP as a tool to get cigars, then you miss the point.

Eight months is a enough time to know that when I get involved you need to be concerned. If I call you out and I'm not. It is because I have a concern. Rod has stated he will close the the BST forum to those types of cigars. If he does you only have yourselves to blame for it.

CP is not for buying and selling for me. It is one aspect of the hobby that I love. Yes I am new to this and am enjoying myself. I have been sold questionable cigars as well, it will eventually happen to everyone. The BST forum is what got my my first rare cigar. And I thank the member who sold me those. When I put things up for sale, I do it to give back to the community, not for the act of selling. There are a ton of people who went to the TESB herf that saw the generosity that the members of this forum and others had for a member in need. Things like that is what the community is all about. BUT if I was never sold those original HTF cigars...maybe I would not be as bad as I am now...bastards :laugh: I totally respect your opinion and comments and am not by any means trying to undermine in anyway. Like other members said, when you talk the board listens

Cheers

And Gary,
I do not mean in entirely, but I do not feel the same buyers beware mentality here as I do elsewhere. Look what is written in the top of the BST forum

PLEASE NOTE: Other forums have the philosophy of "buyer beware!". We take pride in our community, therefore, ALL members here watch out for each other, and we encourage them to speak up when they see something un-kosher occur. E-Bay ratings, participation on other forums, etc do not justify or otherwise replace our rules. Your reputation at CP is all that matters.

 

[CigarStone]

See this is where the problem is. This influx of buying and selling here has polluted the cigar inventory you may have.

"I bought these from Joe. Where did Joe get them? He got them from Bob, he's a good guy. I think he buys from x and they have the best prices, but Bob really got these from Willie who gets his stuff from Tony on board x. Tony has a source and he gets some of the best stuff out there. You go from there and you end up where we are now."

The clock is ticking on Mike. I wouldn't hold out for any refunds of money. If he answered you the way he did, it means he doesn't have the money to repay you and doesn't take responsibility for his cigars. This is just another lesson on how things can and do get out of hand.

Anthony,
By no means is this an attack on you. You are one of the members that I look up to on this forum. This is more of a general comment. But I do not agree with this statement about wheeling and dealing. If there were not members who would split boxes up, or sell HTF cigars I would not have half of my cigars. I buy and sell a lot of cigar, but that is part of my collecting/obsessive personality. Like with any purchase you take everything with caution. I generally do my due diligence before ever purchase... and I pass that on when I sell cigars as well. This issue with Mike is a bad one...but it looks to me as an isolated incident. I can not expect every member to act this way...new or old.

Cheers Brother

Ed, I think all Anthony is saying is that during the course of people buying and selling cigars over and over again, it only takes one instance of someone passing on a fake where one person misses it, for the person that does catch it to say "hey, you sold me a fake" and the guy that sold it has no idea what is being talked about because he bought it from someone he thinks he should be able to trust.

Yea, we all get a lot of our cigars from GB's, splits, cross-board sales, etc...., what is being conveyed now is that there are so many members and it seems like as soon as you new guys hit 4 months, it's a free for all in sales.

Just because you take due diligence in the sales of your cigars, doesn't mean that everyone else does.

Now, I would say that those that are just posting to be heard probably need to stop. This is a public discussion and everyone's opinion is deserving of being heard, but how much of this do you think Rod is going to put up with over the course of this thread before he decides to ratchet down on sales of "this" nature to stop these types of problems.

Now that's funny

 

[grateful1]

And Gary,
I do not mean in entirely, but I do not feel the same buyers beware mentality here as I do elsewhere. Look what is written in the top of the BST forum

PLEASE NOTE: Other forums have the philosophy of "buyer beware!". We take pride in our community, therefore, ALL members here watch out for each other, and we encourage them to speak up when they see something un-kosher occur. E-Bay ratings, participation on other forums, etc do not justify or otherwise replace our rules. Your reputation at CP is all that matters.

Understood.
Now, when dealing with 'high end' and/or rare items...unless I get them in a sealed box and I'm standing in the store looking at that box...it is buyer beware.

Also, remember that over the past few months, some of those 'heavy handed' FOG's who may have spoken up before...well, they are in the wind. The new members and new cigar smokers are now watching out for each other - as the term guys have stepped away from the computers...with good cause...they've been asked too .

 

[insight]

We've turned into a friggin' flea market.

Agreed. Agreed with Anthony. Agreed with David. Too many people buying and selling too much shit they don't fully understand. Diving into a hobby/community is a great thing but like TB said it is turning into a flea market. I recently criticized the logic being employed in a boxsplit and what I got was a fair amount of "He's a great guy, I would vouch for him 110%." I don't think that guy had bad intentions at all but the response to questioning some shit he said was pretty pathetic. The newer guys have NOT connected the dots that high volume trading leads to high volume risk and that questioning someone's logic or approach is not questioning them. I don't give a shit if you are a good guy or if your buddies vouch for you 110%. If Shiba can fubar it or Viewfishy can get taken/spread cigars herpes so can you. The more I hear vetted members being told "Thanks for your thoughts but I am going to do what I want to do" the more I laugh and wait for the levee to break. YBDMV

 

[SPIVY]

We've turned into a friggin' flea market.

Agreed. Agreed with Anthony. Agreed with David. Too many people buying and selling too much shit they don't fully understand. Diving into a hobby/community is a great thing but like TB said it is turning into a flea market. I recently criticized the logic being employed in a boxsplit and what I got was a fair amount of "He's a great guy, I would vouch for him 110%." I don't think that guy had bad intentions at all but the response to questioning some shit he said was pretty pathetic. The newer guys have NOT connected the dots that high volume trading leads to high volume risk and that questioning someone's logic or approach is not questioning them. I don't give a shit if you are a good guy or if your buddies vouch for you 110%. If Shiba can fubar it or Viewfishy can get taken/spread cigars herpes so can you. The more I hear vetted members being told "Thanks for your thoughts but I am going to do what I want to do" the more I laugh and wait for the levee to break. YBDMV

Agreed. So back on point...

 

[tomthirtysix]

We've turned into a friggin' flea market.

Agreed. Agreed with Anthony. Agreed with David. Too many people buying and selling too much shit they don't fully understand. Diving into a hobby/community is a great thing but like TB said it is turning into a flea market. I recently criticized the logic being employed in a boxsplit and what I got was a fair amount of "He's a great guy, I would vouch for him 110%." I don't think that guy had bad intentions at all but the response to questioning some shit he said was pretty pathetic. The newer guys have NOT connected the dots that high volume trading leads to high volume risk and that questioning someone's logic or approach is not questioning them. I don't give a shit if you are a good guy or if your buddies vouch for you 110%. If Shiba can fubar it or Viewfishy can get taken/spread cigars herpes so can you. The more I hear vetted members being told "Thanks for your thoughts but I am going to do what I want to do" the more I laugh and wait for the levee to break. YBDMV

Agreed. So back on point...

I think what Phil, Bary, Bfree, Tony, etc. are saying is completely on point.

 

[Rod]

Also, remember that over the past few months, some of those 'heavy handed' FOG's who may have spoken up before...well, they are in the wind. The new members and new cigar smokers are now watching out for each other - as the term guys have stepped away from the computers...with good cause...they've been asked too .

Like all things, communities especially, tend to evolve over time. CP will never be what is was in 00, or 01, or 02, or 03, or 04, etc. Every year is different, and it will continue to change as membership increases/changes. No two ways about it. Our core rules will remain intact and enforced. As far as CC sales, there may be some changes there soon...

Some of the issues brought up in this thread have no bearing on the fact that Mike sold fake cigars. Let's keep this thread on track, please.

As an update, I emailed Mike yesterday regarding this. I have yet to hear from him. He last logged into CP: 15th June 2009 - 08:52 PM

The PM exchange I had with him prior to his last login was less than desirable...

FROM MICHAEL:

Rod,

Hope you're doing well. First and foremost, those cigars were sold to Rob a few months ago... not recently. Secondly, Rob's determination of their legitimacy is questionable at best. You know that I've been around here for a while now... and what he used as "proof" was severely lacking any real substance. Did he send you the picture? I purchased those cigars years ago from NAME REMOVED and NAME REMOVED. Those are the only 2 vendors I get my cigars from... that and established members.

At the same time, I've never had nor sold fake cigars. You should know that as well. It's always amusing when these "new" guys thinking they know how the world works and buying into every cigar rumor out there without learning the actual ins and outs.

I have absolutely no reason to refund the money because he decided a few months later that he feels the cigars are fake due to some fly by night thread he read. I have no guarantees that he's taken care of the cigars so even if I were to refund the money, what guarantees do I have that I will get the exact same cigars back that I sent him? How are you to know that he isnt just passing off fakes as mine so that he can get his money back while he keeps my legit cigars? Let's assume that he actually sends me back the original cigars. How can I be sure that he took care of them over the last few months? I only trust Rob about as far as I can throw him... especially given this situation.

I left the CP for a while to get away from all the drama. I figured after a year or two, it would be time to step back into the community. Low and behold, same stuff, different people. At the end of the day, this is your cigar board to admin as you see fit. If you don't agree with me, then so be it. I came back to offer some older sticks to the newer generation of CP members only to have it completely backfire in my face. How's that for some gratitude?

I stand by my decision.
Michael

 

[miamipadronsmoker]

Wow! Mike I'm really offended by your words and actions here. Is this what you think CP is about? Do you really think I would bamboozle you over a couple of cigars? Mike please respond because I feel an apology is owed.

 

[moki]

Wow! Mike I'm really offended by your words and actions here. Is this what you think CP is about? Do you really think I would bamboozle you over a couple of cigars? Mike please respond because I feel an apology is owed.

In fairness, I think Michael could say the exact same thing to you. Let's distill this down a bit.

1) You don't know Michael well, and Michael doesn't know you well.

2) You have some cigars that are demonstrably fake

3) You have some other cigars that may or may not be fake

4) Michael says he got the cigars from a reliable, trusted vendor, and the cigars he sent you are real; since he doesn't know you well, he has no assurance that, several months later, the cigars you're saying are fake are the ones he sent you

5) You, for your part, know for sure that the cigars you're putting forward are what he sent, and at least some of them are fake

See where the problem is? In order to believe you, Michael has to be sure that a person he doesn't know well:

1) Knows what is a real cigar and what is not

2) Kept these cigars entirely separate for several months, and knows exactly which cigars you received from him (and isn't making an honest mistake mixing cigars together)

3) Isn't up to anything nefarious, jumping on the bandwagon trying to scam him

Now, you know these things are not accurate... but he doesn't know that; he doesn't know you well. For your part, in order to believe him, you have to be sure that a person you don't know well:

1) Knows what is a real cigar and what is not

2) Kept track of his inventory accurately all of these years, never mixing trusted vendor sourced cigars with cigars obtained elsewhere (and isn't making an honest mistake mixing cigars together)

3) Isn't up to anything nefarious, trying to unload fake product on a newb

You see why we're at a stand-still on this? It's two sides of the same coin, both of which involve a leap of faith, and issues of trust.

I'm certainly not going to be able to sit here and decide exactly what transpired; I just don't have enough information. All I can say for sure is that some of the cigars pictured in this thread are fake, and some may be fake.

I will say that the fact that more than one person who purchased cigars from Michael has stepped forward to show fake cigars that they say were purchased from him do lend credence to their side of the argument... but the three issues I outlined above remain.

Lest anyone think otherwise, I'm not making apologies for anyone here. I don't think this was handled well by Vewyphishy, and I also think it could have been handled better by the buyers (if you think something is fake, say so right away... if you're not sure if something is fake or not, don't buy it).

My advice for Cuban cigar buyers remains:

http://www.vitolas.net/displayimage.php?pos=-1021

So what do I think probably happened? I think probably Vewyphishy accidentally sold fake cigars to you guys, and is taken aback by the response because he believes he obtained them from trusted vendors. How this happened, I don't know... my guess would be mixing up the cigars with cigars he obtained elsewhere, or fakes really were obtained from a vendor (yes, Virginia, there have been cases of trusted vendors introducing fakes into the pipeline, either wittingly or unwittingly).

I do not think Michael is trying to take advantage of anyone, despite his curt responses via PM. Just IMHO.

I've seen it go both ways with someone said they bought a box of cigars from a particular trusted vendor (two different vendors involved here):

1) In the first instance, I contacted said vendor, and they had no record of them purchasing those cigars from

2) In the second instance, they did indeed buy the cigars from the vendor they mentioned, and the vendor replaced the cigars

 

[NullSmurf]

Quick lessons that I'm filing for future reference.

1. Inspect anything I buy to ensure I got what I ordered, and that they are in the condition specified.
2. Should I ever deal in Cubans, I will keep meticulous records of what I bought, when, and from whom.
3. Should I ever SELL a Cuban, I will add that to my already meticulous record. Should a fake ever slip though my shields, I'll be able to notify both up and down line.

 

[Mark Twain]

Sheesh, Andrew. Why do you have to be so damned reasonable all the time?

One point that you brought up is rarely discussed; if you don't know the person buying/selling cigars, then don't be so quick to sell/buy cigars from said person.

This ain't Ebay folks.

 

[souldog]

Wow! Mike I'm really offended by your words and actions here. Is this what you think CP is about? Do you really think I would bamboozle you over a couple of cigars? Mike please respond because I feel an apology is owed.

And you know this because of your long and enduring tenure here, correct? We're ALL newbies here dude... Just have some respect, you're already winning in this argument, so just keep quiet and wait to see what happens.

Wheelin' and dealin' so much can get you fakes once in a while, okay? Does it suck? Sure does. I've had friends who don't get their money back and the original seller was banned. Them's the ways it goes sometimes. For now, just sit and wait, it'll pan itself out, instead of thrashing about everytime a new development comes in. If all else fails, you can give the fakes to SPIVY since he likes reviewing them. :laugh:

 

[SPIVY]

If all else fails, you can give the fakes to SPIVY since he likes reviewing them. :laugh:

Next is that Bolivar Platinum Medal you sent me