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My thoughts on Passes

Theres that MSRP thing again :D

There are pros and cons either way.

My current idea on that is name the MSRP of any cigar and that is the same price on line, in the store, anywhere in the world....But name the retail price and there isn't one price that is the same and no matter who has the cheapest price there will always be someone who has one cheaper....or more expensive for that matter.

Yes I use MSRP for my online inventory system, for the most part, for the Pass's that request my services and if I can't find it I use CI's retail price and note it as "retail" on the list. The Passes I have done this for the participents seemed to liked using the system as "a" resource. If a Pass host request Retail I have no problem switching as long as the source is noted and I can stick to only one source for all comparisons. (if you have no idea what I am talking about refer to the Gunpowders Smoke Room Link in my signature).

Also, Not all members can order online due to lack of a credit card. Should they be punished because they have to buy a cigar at regular retail price when you might find a 5 pk for $2-3 on c-bid once in a while or a special 1am JR deal. Using MSRP ignors all sales, deals, taxes, regional supply problems, and overpricings, and sets a level playing field for all cigars no matter where you live, your source, etc.


Regardless of which price you do end up using, if using MSRP for your put use MSRP for your take. If using retail use one site for your put and the same site for your take.

One thing to look out for is if using retail, some cigars may be under or over priced because that particular store gets a better deal for say CAO over AVO and the price reflects that. Doesn't mean overall market value reflects the prices reflected on "that " website or retail store. An example would be the owner of the retail store in the midwest that is a relative of the Fuente family. They have no probelm getting the rare cigars (so I hear). That doesn't mean the value is any less for the cigars not being purchased at that location because they are still considered comparitively rare world wide.

BTW, The above excludes rare cigars which is a diffferent beast.

Cohibasurfer,

By your depth of interest in this topic, it seems you have experienced a problem that I haven't seen with MSRP. If you know of a real life P/T example, post the link and I would be glad to examine it and discuss further.

I am open to changing my opinion on the MSRP/RETAIL discussion if I see specific examples that show a major problem utilizing MSRP for P/T's.
 
Well a lot of the FOG's don't smoke what's in normal passes. So taking sticks that they do not smoke doesn't make sense. I have been on the board for about 2 years. I have started 1 semi-invitation only pass, a mid level pass, and a few low end passes. The are FOG's that are more fogey than I am. I am sure many will say the same thing.
I don't think us joining passes is going to "help" this site any more. It will over expose some members. Eventually they will get tired of being a "babysitter", and members will get tired of being "babysitted". There is an anti-FOG sentiment by some people as it is.
The people that have time and energy to keep things running smoothely have volunteered their time and energy. If you think something should change, maybe you should volunteer to do something. IMO self regulation is working ok, why make a change.
Emo
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Back to the FOG participation issue for just a sec.

I never said FOGs should babysit or supervise passes or anything of the sort- and I never meant it that way. None of us need "babysitting" as it was put- we are all adult's here!, now- supervison is another story :D :p

The idea was for FOGs to "play" in a few regular passes... The comment that FOGs don't smoke cigars in regular passes :lookup: ??? I think thats the kind of comment that causes the anti-fog sentiment ;) I'm sure not every fog on here only smokes Cuban Davidoff Dom Perignon 1983's. exclusively :)

I'm merely making a suggestion, whats done with the suggestion is up to who ever reads it :) If FOGs only want to play in passes by themselves- that's their business, and I personally don't have a problem with it... :thumbs: But my comment was to try and get rid of the anti-fog sentiment, that I think alot of people might be getting :( That way people would see FOG's play with everyone on the site, instead of only publicly voicing disapproval of a members wrong-doing. ;)

*NOTE: I may not be writing this the way I want it to come out, like I obviously did before- so to clearify: My suggestion is to shine a brighter light on EVERYONE on this site... FOGs included :)
 
Now for a little more elaboration on passes.

There has been some comments on the "Pass Master" having OK'd the Puts. No one should say anything. I agree to a degree that the person originating the pass would have the greatest influence. But in cases of "New Pass Masters" ( ones with little knowlege ) they may not fully understand some aspects, and a little tutoring should be done. Reason being, everyone in the pass has a right to be treated fair. Passes are for all who are in it, not just the Originator. If I'm at the bottom of the pass that starts with 10 premiums and 10 fair sticks, and in the first 5 passers, 2 make P's&T's that are -Take 4 Premiums put 3 and 3 mediums, I as a passer am getting cheated right along with the Pass Master. That is the very reason, unless the rules state specificley otherwise, Pass Masters shouldn't be aloud to make exceptions so a certain passer can trade for a stick by placing quanity for quality. For these kind of things. There are TRADES. Now I'm not talking about invite passes. I'm talking about open sign up passes that say, general rules apply.

Yes?
 
Quanity for quality is wrong. Everyone here is in agreement. But an exception might be ok if the extra stick/s are premiums and the P/T are really close to being equal.

Let me clarify my question. If the P/T is close to being equal with each stick within a dollar margin either way, might an additional premium stick (PAM for example)benefit the trade?

Just throwing it out to the group for replys. Not nessasarly my position.
 
Gunpowder said:
Quanity for quality is wrong. Everyone here is in agreement. But an exception might be ok if the extra stick/s are premiums and the P/T are really close to being equal.

Let me clarify my question. If the P/T is close to being equal with each stick within a dollar margin either way, might an additional premium stick (PAM for example)benefit the trade?

Just throwing it out to the group for replys. Not nessasarly my position.
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I was in a pass where quantity for quality was OKed by the host and I don't think it's a problem at all. In fact that's what got me in the trouble I got in th enext pass I was in. In the first pass I called a guy out of a "classic quantity for quality play," then was told to "simmah down nah" by the host. Then in the next pass the exact opposite happens!

I think in the first pass it was 2:1 maximum on one put only. Meaning, if you took 5 cigars you could put in 6; you couldn't take 3 and put 6 (assuming equal value here w/o extras).

If I ever start a pass I will probably do that, assuming it's 2 rare sticks for a REALLY rare stick, or 2 premium sticks for one rare stick (For example 2 La Aurora Preferidos 1903 for one regular Opus X would be a sweet deal in my eyes). :0

Either way I just don't want pass hosts to feel like they don't have the right to allow 2:1 if they want.

I agree with what you are saying though, assume no quantity for quality unless otherwise expplicity specified
 
Here's the issue with quantity vs. quality, msrp vs retail, price for price, rare for rare, etc...

The rule you make today, is different tomorrow- and for every seperate scenario. What it really boils down to is this- Others helping others via massive amounts of communication. quantity for quality is not a good trade when someone takes a premium and puts in a bunch of mid grades, but if someone takes a mid grade and puts in more mid grades- that "might" be ok- Depending on the sticks involved (I'm not as good at laying out examples as Cohibasurfer :p :)) I'm not trying to crap on the thread- quite the contrary, this thread is a golden example of the communication that some people need to read. however the mood I'm in today tells me to say this as plain as I can for everyone reading...

If you've been allowed into a public invite pass- respect that pass, its host and its players. They have all agreed to let you in- and you owe them that much rather you feel you do or not- you do! And if you like playing in passes here, trading here, or just being here in general- getting a bad reputation for playing unfair will only isolate you to reading messages, none of the other kids will want to play with you anymore because you're no fun. The best advice I would give you is this, post your P/T's publicly in the pass thread at least 24 hours BEFORE sending out the box, let some people chime in with approval, or disapproval. You're better off holding up the pass for a day instead of robbing the pass of its cargo. And I think the first post said it best- Passes are for fun, not profit.

Here's the real bottom line: If you are new to cigars, or a casual cigar smoker- ask for help, there is no shame in doing so. Some of the people here know alot about cigars- maybe its their passion, or their only hobby, or whatever... but they can tell you things you never thought anyone knew about cigars. Especially whats rare, good, bad, expensive, cheap, etc. Maybe if you're a new cigar smoker or casual cigar smoker, you don't know that "brand so-and-so" cigar is a piece of crap (yet), because the guy at the shop said they are good/great/decent/excellent cigars- Of course he said that- HE WANTS TO SELL THEM. I don't think I've ever been in a cigar shop and the "worker" told me a cigar in his store was a piece of crap- everything they carry and have in stock is good, Nothing is bad :p so ask- its no big deal. And there is no shame in NOT KNOWING. No one knew everything right off the bat, it comes with time, research and patience. I thought I knew quite a bit about cigars until I started reading some of the stuff around here... I realized I don't know half of what I thought I knew :)


Maybe I'm wrong? ??? I just think the more experienced cigar collectors, smokers, etc- arent the people who need to understand this...
 
Exactly Toaster. These threads are for the "still hungry for knowlege" cigar smokers! People that want to join passes but don't know what to expect. Well, and a few others ;)
 
I hosted a pass...not looking to gain anything from it...but essentially to see what it was about.

People posted P/T's I supose if one were to scrutinize them then one will always find an "error" or something not to what they consider "fair"

All I asked was quality in / quality out and to use CI, Holts or Jr's for pricing if unsure....common sense was the rule of the day.

I don't see the sense in scrutinizing the P/T's if there is something the host is not happy about then they should contact the person and resolve without the rest of the band jumping on board.

The final word is the HOST and the HOST only....if they are willing to accept the trades then that is the choice they make.

My 2 cents

-P-
 
rnccen

I'll have to disagree with you on this:


The final word is the HOST and the HOST only....if they are willing to accept the trades then that is the choice they make.
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It's not at trade. The Host and current passer are not the only 2 involved if it's a pass. Everyone down the line has a say. If I'm at the end of a pass full of nice sticks and it gets to me and all I have to choose from is a bunch of bundle or sticks I have by the box already, I sure the hell don't want to play and pay shipping. To Me the Host makes the rules, you sign up, then it becomes everyone playings PASS ...not the Hosts trade. :sign:

As a pass host though if you want people not say anything about P's & T's... it's exceptable to state that as what your pass will be.
 
cohibasurfer said:
rnccen

I'll have to disagree with you on this:


The final word is the HOST and the HOST only....if they are willing to accept the trades then that is the choice they make.
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It's not at trade. The Host and current passer are not the only 2 involved if it's a pass. Everyone down the line has a say. If I'm at the end of a pass full of nice sticks and it gets to me and all I have to choose from is a bunch of bundle or sticks I have by the box already, I sure the hell don't want to play and pay shipping. To Me the Host makes the rules, you sign up, then it becomes everyone playings PASS ...not the Hosts trade. :sign:

As a pass host though if you want people not say anything about P's & T's... it's exceptable to state that as what your pass will be.
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EEEeeezactly, right on the money Cohiba.

Besides that, scrutiny ain't supposed to keep the honest people honest, it's to keep the moochy assed cheats honest.

NA
 
Exactly!

You know, there are very few of us who actually get it. When we try to "give it", we are accused of "attacking", there's disagreement, etc.

That's why I don't do passes or trades anymore, tired of the bull****! ;)
 
Ok Cohibasurfer

I used wrong choice of words I used pass/trade...but it is generally accepted that the Host would have control of the pass and I do concur that if there are others in the pass then they can and are welcome to input into the pass..but when a dispute arises what I should have said was that it would be up to the host to resolve any disputes.

I also think that only those in the pass should be allowed to call the P/T's, bystanders should PM the host of possible issues that the host may wish to look at.

Bottom line passes should be fun for those involved, we are all adults here and should act like adults.

-P-
 
Interesting question I just thought of. I agree with Cohibasurfer but since the host is risking his sticks to start a pass shouldn't he/she get final say? All I have been in has stated so in the rules.
 
Ya think that maybe that's why a few of us quit passing about the time this post was made. Passes are suppost to be fun, if they aren't fun because of all the drama why play. Glad this was topped, it's a good read again.


Lee, good to hear the Enzite is working out for you. ;)

Michael, is **** stirrer the same as salad tosser? :0


Joe , I never did get my Mastraneers Hat. :(
 
Bottom line is that you may feel you are entitled to an opinion in the pass. But the Host has the final say so since it is his pass to begin with and it is his sticks he's risking. If it wasn't for the Host then there wouldn't be a pass in the first place. ;)
 
rnccen said:
Ok Cohibasurfer

I used wrong choice of words I used pass/trade...but it is generally accepted that the Host would have control of the pass and I do concur that if there are others in the pass then they can and are welcome to input into the pass..but when a dispute arises what I should have said was that it would be up to the host to resolve any disputes.

I also think that only those in the pass should be allowed to call the P/T's, bystanders should PM the host of possible issues that the host may wish to look at.

Bottom line passes should be fun for those involved, we are all adults here and should act like adults.

-P-
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rnccen,
Let me state my philosophy. If all the older members sat with hands folded, and let havic run amongst CP. Then open Passes would be a thing of the past. They are getting fewer and fewer as it is. People need to learn ...I did. In my first couple passes I didn't understand that 4 $2 sticks weren't equal to 1 $8 stick. And since alot of the older Cp'ers are staying away from open passing (because of all the drama) alot of the newer passers are left to rape and pillage! Enough of that and people will say... I'm not going to put my sticks up. Those passers that know what they are doing don't give a crap who it is that speaks up, because they understand and want everyone to understand. I get an uneasy feeling when people ask others ... (like myself) to stay out of passes we aren't in. Why don't they want information put out there. You tell me?
Now to be a little more direct. If you(rnccen) are refering to CC's Polital pass. And are insinuation is that I'm sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong.Well He asked me to post through PM. Maybe he'll come out from behind the sofa ;) and post on that thread soon. And if you'll read his pass rules .... I was listed as a wrath distributor . :p
 
Cohibasurfer...I was not using the election pass nor was I making reference to you, I was only stating what my opinion was....I welcome knowledge, insight and have always respected others opinions right or wrong, it is common courtesy.

If one takes offense to anothers opinions then such is life.

I still think that people loose sight of a passes purpose.....people choose to participate in passes for various reasons, overall I don't think that the folks here at CP are out to screw, cheat, defraud, steal, ruin, malign any other BOTL or pass here, again we are all adults.

There have been a few that have been misguided and they have moved on from this forum...GL comes to mind.

I supose I would have more cause for concern on a premium pass or strictly isom pass than a midrange pass.

The only true way to stop these issues you present is to stop having passes.

There will always be a price difference on P/T's (sale price, MSRP, Regular, which vendor, etc...)

There will always be opinions on what one considers a premium / super-premium / midrange due to ones tastes, price is always associated with cigars and the general concept the more one pays for a cigar the greater the value of the cigar to that person.

You do present some valid points as do others in this thread and others on the forums. The greatest assest is knowledge though, I also think it is prudent for new folks to review completed passes to see what other P/T's were and certainly 2 $4.00 cigars don't equal an $8.00 cigar if it was a price based pass, there are other factors that should be considered...limited production, rarity of the cigar, availability, age of isoms, etc...

Anyway...this has been an interesting thread among others....my 2 cents are done....I will refrain from any addt'l posts on this topic as I am not one to typically get into debates.
 
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