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Fruits of Castro's Soil Pass No.1
- Thread starter Tall Paul
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Licensed to Kill
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Tall Paul said:
Paul, I don't think that this one is too bad and my reasoning for it being this:
The BGM are no longer in production and were exclusively for LCDH and the Escepcions were a limited release of 2000 boxes exclusively for Italy. Both can still be had but very tough to find. IMO the HTF rarity for rarity is there with this one.
Again just my take on it and would like to hear others as well.
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Did the pirates take our pass?
Jonesy
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As a bystander, can I throw in my $.02?
As a man of many passes, both hosted and participated in, this pass can get out of hand pretty quickly. I remember buying box after box of BGM's for $100, the La Escepcion is a $25 cigar. Now I may have been getting good prices, but even if you moved the BGM to the highest end of their pricing which was close to $150/box, this trade cannot work. I love ya Bill and I'm not throwing down on your P/T's, but that trade just can't go down. You might can add $2 to the BGM because it's not made anymore, but that's it....there is no rarity with a BGM.
Now, as to what Wyatt said, that can't work either. If you let someone over put on one cigar and then under put on another, the last couple guys on the list are going to to have cigars that are out of their reach because of the pricing, or low end cigars.
Paul, I know this is your pass and your rules, so if you feel like I'm stepping on toes here, I truly apologize. But I feel in any pass that's not a newbie pass, you need to have a certain percentage in place that you have to stay within when making trades. Even if the % is scaled. Under $15= 5% and above $15 10% max. I only say this because when you hit a certain price range, it can be tricky to make a trade. But in a pass like this where you're going to get a lot of RE's and LE's, the majority of those are going to price out in the $25 range so you really won't have a problem with the higher end sticks.
Bill, you could throw a Genios, Magicos or a CoRo and make that BGM trade.
As a man of many passes, both hosted and participated in, this pass can get out of hand pretty quickly. I remember buying box after box of BGM's for $100, the La Escepcion is a $25 cigar. Now I may have been getting good prices, but even if you moved the BGM to the highest end of their pricing which was close to $150/box, this trade cannot work. I love ya Bill and I'm not throwing down on your P/T's, but that trade just can't go down. You might can add $2 to the BGM because it's not made anymore, but that's it....there is no rarity with a BGM.
Now, as to what Wyatt said, that can't work either. If you let someone over put on one cigar and then under put on another, the last couple guys on the list are going to to have cigars that are out of their reach because of the pricing, or low end cigars.
Paul, I know this is your pass and your rules, so if you feel like I'm stepping on toes here, I truly apologize. But I feel in any pass that's not a newbie pass, you need to have a certain percentage in place that you have to stay within when making trades. Even if the % is scaled. Under $15= 5% and above $15 10% max. I only say this because when you hit a certain price range, it can be tricky to make a trade. But in a pass like this where you're going to get a lot of RE's and LE's, the majority of those are going to price out in the $25 range so you really won't have a problem with the higher end sticks.
Bill, you could throw a Genios, Magicos or a CoRo and make that BGM trade.
bfreebern
Yada, Yada, Yada.
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You make good points Jonesy. I think keeping the puts/takes in line should be protocol for all passes. Percentages up and down are fine (not sure the happy %), but over/under gets a little tricky.
In my many passes, I tried to keep things fairly equal. If I felt like throwing something over the top, it was always done as it's own put without any takes in exchange. That way you're not causing any issues with your puts/takes, but you're also giving the people down the line a chance to try something they might not get to.
In my many passes, I tried to keep things fairly equal. If I felt like throwing something over the top, it was always done as it's own put without any takes in exchange. That way you're not causing any issues with your puts/takes, but you're also giving the people down the line a chance to try something they might not get to.
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I found only one vendor with the BGM in stock for $164.49 which is $16.49 if we add the $2 to it = $18.50 La Escepsion are $541 which $21.64. I found two vendors with these in stock.
Now do we go by what both cigars were worth in 2011 or what they are worth now to buy?
If the BGM is to be traded wouldn't it have to be with something that is no longer in production to be fair to Paul putting up his non production HTF cigars? I don't think that the regular production and still readily available Genios, CoRo's or Magicos are an even trade. This one is a LCDH release, no longer in production and HTF cigar and should be replaced with the same or an RE/EL to be fair.
La Escepcion is also an Italian release, HTF and no longer in production cigar. Again it doesn't have to be a La Escepcion but it shouldn't be a regular production cigar either.
ETA: for my spelling which still sucks!
Now do we go by what both cigars were worth in 2011 or what they are worth now to buy?
If the BGM is to be traded wouldn't it have to be with something that is no longer in production to be fair to Paul putting up his non production HTF cigars? I don't think that the regular production and still readily available Genios, CoRo's or Magicos are an even trade. This one is a LCDH release, no longer in production and HTF cigar and should be replaced with the same or an RE/EL to be fair.
La Escepcion is also an Italian release, HTF and no longer in production cigar. Again it doesn't have to be a La Escepcion but it shouldn't be a regular production cigar either.
ETA: for my spelling which still sucks!
Jonesy
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If you go to ANY vendor, they are out of stock with a price around ~$100 a box. Just because it was an LCDH release, doesn't mean you couldn't get it anywhere. There is no way you trade a BGM for a La Escepcion. If you go back where people state MSRP/MSRP the La Escepcion is a $25.You can argue this point all day long, but when you start talking to guys that have been in dozens of passes, they will agree with me. And you're right about the Cohiba's I named, in order to trade out one of those for a BGM, it would need a few years age on it. That in itself makes up for a cigar that was cheap, but no longer in production.
Just because you find a price on a cigar from a vendor that has it in stock, doesn't mean that's the price you use.
If I put a Perdomo Edicion de Silvio Salamone in for a GoF Pirimide from the humidor, would you let that fly? Same price point, HTF, limited production....
My main point in all of this is that there HAS to be some kind of boundary on puts and takes. You can't have a $10 over put on this trade (which it is even though you gave pricing) and expect the pass to make it affordable for the guys in the end.
Just because you find a price on a cigar from a vendor that has it in stock, doesn't mean that's the price you use.
If I put a Perdomo Edicion de Silvio Salamone in for a GoF Pirimide from the humidor, would you let that fly? Same price point, HTF, limited production....
My main point in all of this is that there HAS to be some kind of boundary on puts and takes. You can't have a $10 over put on this trade (which it is even though you gave pricing) and expect the pass to make it affordable for the guys in the end.
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Jonesy, I agree with you on some points but wouldn't you have to go with a vendor that has these in stock and pay their prices? It isn't like vendors have these on backorder and are waiting to restock them. I know that if you want any of these two cigars right now aside from trading someone you have to buy them for these ridiculous prices.
Again, it doesn't have to be a La Escepcion but at the end of the day the BGM is still a HTF no longer in production cigar. In my opinion this should go into consideration when analyzing P&T's for them.
We knew going into this that it would be a little more difficult because of them being CC's and pricing all over the board but it's fun and a learning experience and looking forward to more feedback from everyone else in the pass. :thumbs:
Great discussion brother.
Again, it doesn't have to be a La Escepcion but at the end of the day the BGM is still a HTF no longer in production cigar. In my opinion this should go into consideration when analyzing P&T's for them.
We knew going into this that it would be a little more difficult because of them being CC's and pricing all over the board but it's fun and a learning experience and looking forward to more feedback from everyone else in the pass. :thumbs:
Great discussion brother.
Jonesy
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That's why I said add $2 to the BGM. Rarity and age are the two hardest things to come up with when discussing trades. Typically, age doesn't factor in until the cigar is at least 5 years old or older.
When you're discussing cigars that are no longer in production, you can't use a vendors price to get the value, unless there are multiple vendors that have them both in stock. With a trade like this, you use MSRP and your best judgment as far as making a trade. You're absolutely correct in your statement about the BGM being a HTF cigar because it's no longer in production, but production wasn't limited on them, that's where I came up with adding the extra $2 to it, but if that's the case, you would also have to compensate the La Escepcion in the same way.
To me, since the BGM was a cheap cigar, the easiest way to trade for one would be to use a regular production cigar that has some age on it to wipe out the HTF/Age issue. But at the same time, we all tend to over think trades and make more out of them then there really should be.
This is a great discussion and the members of the pass need to jump in with their opinions on the matter. Mine really isn't with the BGM, but with the value for value concept.
When you're discussing cigars that are no longer in production, you can't use a vendors price to get the value, unless there are multiple vendors that have them both in stock. With a trade like this, you use MSRP and your best judgment as far as making a trade. You're absolutely correct in your statement about the BGM being a HTF cigar because it's no longer in production, but production wasn't limited on them, that's where I came up with adding the extra $2 to it, but if that's the case, you would also have to compensate the La Escepcion in the same way.
To me, since the BGM was a cheap cigar, the easiest way to trade for one would be to use a regular production cigar that has some age on it to wipe out the HTF/Age issue. But at the same time, we all tend to over think trades and make more out of them then there really should be.
This is a great discussion and the members of the pass need to jump in with their opinions on the matter. Mine really isn't with the BGM, but with the value for value concept.
grateful1
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I tend to go by what the prices were for the year - then there's the rarity issue - then age. <br /><br />If it were a Wolter's BGM, then it would probably work. <br /><br />BGM were sold for as little as $7 or less a stick - if you knew where to look. Average was about $9. <br /><br />With age and rarity ...still not worth over $12 probably. <br />The Wolter's being the exception. (Although some wouldn't say that). <br /><br />A production BGM should not match a regional unless you go with price over rarity. <br /><br />Just my tommytwocents!
grateful1
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Yes Brandon. That's correct. <br />It should read what I paid. <br /><br />In the case they are talking about something different. So I said go by what they were that year. <br /><br />Heck - exchange rates become an issue with this stuff! 
<br /><br />Most folks who have been involved enough will know.
<br /><br />Most folks who have been involved enough will know.
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bfreebern said:
Well in that case my reasoning for it is out the window.
All I'm trying to convey is that as cheap as the BGM's were and wether we agree or not - they are still HTF and out of production LCDH release. Where would we rank an LCDH release? I would think in between a EL and RE release right?
Gary in my opinion, if it was a Wolters 2004 release - I would say that the La Escepcion would be an under put due to the age factor.
I'm not trying to be a dick in any way just trying to express my thoughts and have some meaningful conversation.
CigSid
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Great discussion guys, how about I replace the La Escepcion with a Ramon Allones Estupendos RE 2007, which I paid @ $12 for... Even though they are an LE and a few years older, it would be closer in price than the La Escepcion...
Thoughts?
Thoughts?