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Fake Davidoff and Dunhills sold on CP

moki said:
BobbyRitz said:
Not exactly true, Andrew. It's my understanding that the cigars were shipped directly from the collector. I could be wrong as I haven't discussed this with Tim directly.

For the record, I agree with those who state that Tim was not directly responsible here. I hear Jon on his post, though. It's quite the conundrum. I do know that Tim is a good guy that would never knowingly defraud anyone.
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That being the case, I think if Tim posted "Sorry... here's the guy's contact info", I think that'd be reasonable.

Anyway, regarding how polluted the market is, I think there are a lot of these cigars out there. I doubt I'll be buying any of these brand cigars unless I know their exact pedigree.
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this. what a cluster-f#@k. Thanks to all that have investigated and brought this to light. :thumbs:
 
indyrob said:
Now the question for the future is how polluted is the market?

I've decided a long time ago that I would always shy away from Dunhill & Davidoff because there is no way to guarantee how many times they have exchanged hands before they got to me but now there is no real way to guarantee if they ever came from Bruce or not.
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This constant quest for some in this community to have what they want when they want seems to be at the crux of a lot of these issues (the OR Opus caper is another prime example). It is one thing for someone unknown to the community to show up selling glass top Cohiba's. Those are easy to pick off and the people behind those sales should get pitchforks and torches. However, when someone is "trusted" in this community (i.e. been around long enough to know better) is putting their name and reputation on the line - that obligation to the fellow members should not be taken lightly. When it comes to "backing", "sponsoring", "brokering", "being a nice guy" or whatever you want to call being the person in the middle - bottom line - reputation and name are on the line when things go south.

Ok - so it's fair to say that Tim had no idea what he was getting into when he brokered this deal and I'd sure hate to see him get the pitchforks and torches. However - he was certainly not clueless that if the deal went bad, pitchforks and torches would be coming out.

I trust Tim is a respectable, standup guy. Others in this community vouch for him and I trust their judgement. Painful as it is - Tim should offer some kind of explanation and apology - and do something to in some way make it right with those that were taken. He offered to "broker" the sale, and the sale was not what it it was advertised to be. It is definitely the respectable and right thing to do.

I also this this is a great opportunity for all to remember that famous addage - "Caveat Emptor" (buyer beware).
 
Wurm said:
Dago was the first. Just put me in Tony's camp that Tim saying anything won't make a difference or provide closure and I'll be done with this.
*edit* And Jon, I got mad at Dago for his "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay mooooooooooooooooooooooooooore reliable" comment. Other than being the broker for this deal, Tim hasn't a blemish on his reputation here at CP, so Dago's comment was uncalled for.
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Look, my name is Seth. My screen name being what it is, I still would prefer being called by my name if you're going to constantly post about my comments.

You're constantly misunderstanding my posts, I bought Davidoff/Dunhill from Tim first, and Kona Peaberry second (through a friend). I was gifted several sticks in Macau from a collector that I consider (personal opinion of course) 100% reliable. I sent details to Gary but you were not on the PM list as it's really just noise to this thread, and really not your place to even be critical of. Tony made a very relevant comment after I posted up pictures of sticks from Tim, that's the only reason I even posted, to help with this thread. Other sticks in my life are not relevant, just what came from this community. And I thank Tony for that.

Without a doubt my first posts were reactionary and a bit over the top with frustration, and I would edit them *but* that's not the CP way.

Speaking of the CP way, someone earlier made the point that we expect anyone who sells fake sticks to make it right on the CP. There's an implicit trust factor here based on personal relationships and the absolutely recognized reality that doing wrong by CP members will result in an overwhelming and unrelentingly negative response from the community. It's not clear to me why Tim should be held to different rules because, hey, it's Tim.

Is it not obvious to everyone that the collector used Tim or Tim intentionally chose to use this nature of CP - this trust driven system - to push this massive volume to the market? If it were not CP, wouldn't there have been more questions asked?

I'm not sure if I'm calling for his head on a platter (or if any of us have really). But I will call for this:

1) Tim to admit they are fake, apologize and accept that he was taken by the "collector"
2) To out the collector and produce a simple bank record showing that all of the money we paid Tim was transferred to the collector directly (Tim's personal info blacked out of course).

Whether Tim pays us back at that point, well I think there's an issue of scale that may prevent him from doing so, but in doing 1 & 2 above, I would feel that we're moving forward..

As a side note, I don't understand either why we paid Tim, he sold them to the CP and then we're shipped (quite nicely too) from the collector.

ggiese said:
I also this this is a great opportunity for all to remember that famous addage - "Caveat Emptor" (buyer beware).
Click to expand...

Absolutely! But here is a note from the top of the CP Buy/Sell/Trade forum:

PLEASE NOTE: Other forums have the philosophy of "buyer beware!". We take pride in our community, therefore, ALL members here watch out for each other, and we encourage them to speak up when they see something un-kosher occur. E-Bay ratings, participation on other forums, etc do not justify or otherwise replace our rules. Your reputation at CP is all that matters.
 
moki said:
BobbyRitz said:
Not exactly true, Andrew. It's my understanding that the cigars were shipped directly from the collector. I could be wrong as I haven't discussed this with Tim directly.

For the record, I agree with those who state that Tim was not directly responsible here. I hear Jon on his post, though. It's quite the conundrum. I do know that Tim is a good guy that would never knowingly defraud anyone.
Click to expand...
That being the case, I think if Tim posted "Sorry... here's the guy's contact info", I think that'd be reasonable.

Anyway, regarding how polluted the market is, I think there are a lot of these cigars out there. I doubt I'll be buying any of these brand cigars unless I know their exact pedigree.
Click to expand...

I'm not big on buying from individuals, but completely agree.
 
dagoR6 said:
Wurm said:
Dago was the first. Just put me in Tony's camp that Tim saying anything won't make a difference or provide closure and I'll be done with this.
*edit* And Jon, I got mad at Dago for his "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay mooooooooooooooooooooooooooore reliable" comment. Other than being the broker for this deal, Tim hasn't a blemish on his reputation here at CP, so Dago's comment was uncalled for.
Click to expand...

Look, my name is Seth. My screen name being what it is, I still would prefer being called by my name if you're going to constantly post about my comments.

You're constantly misunderstanding my posts, I bought Davidoff/Dunhill from Tim first, and Kona Peaberry second (through a friend). I was gifted several sticks in Macau from a collector that I consider (personal opinion of course) 100% reliable. I sent details to Gary but you were not on the PM list as it's really just noise to this thread, and really not your place to even be critical of. Tony made a very relevant comment after I posted up pictures of sticks from Tim, that's the only reason I even posted, to help with this thread. Other sticks in my life are not relevant, just what came from this community. And I thank Tony for that.

Without a doubt my first posts were reactionary and a bit over the top with frustration, and I would edit them *but* that's not the CP way.

Speaking of the CP way, someone earlier made the point that we expect anyone who sells fake sticks to make it right on the CP. There's an implicit trust factor here based on personal relationships and the absolutely recognized reality that doing wrong by CP members will result in an overwhelming and unrelentingly negative response from the community. It's not clear to me why Tim should be held to different rules because, hey, it's Tim.

Is it not obvious to everyone that the collector used Tim or Tim intentionally chose to use this nature of CP - this trust driven system - to push this massive volume to the market? If it were not CP, wouldn't there have been more questions asked?

I'm not sure if I'm calling for his head on a platter (or if any of us have really). But I will call for this:

1) Tim to admit they are fake, apologize and accept that he was taken by the "collector"
2) To out the collector and produce a simple bank record showing that all of the money we paid Tim was transferred to the collector directly (Tim's personal info blacked out of course).

Whether Tim pays us back at that point, well I think there's an issue of scale that may prevent him from doing so, but in doing 1 & 2 above, I would feel that we're moving forward..

As a side note, I don't understand either why we paid Tim, he sold them to the CP and then we're shipped (quite nicely too) from the collector.

ggiese said:
I also this this is a great opportunity for all to remember that famous addage - "Caveat Emptor" (buyer beware).
Click to expand...

Absolutely! But here is a note from the top of the CP Buy/Sell/Trade forum:

PLEASE NOTE: Other forums have the philosophy of "buyer beware!". We take pride in our community, therefore, ALL members here watch out for each other, and we encourage them to speak up when they see something un-kosher occur. E-Bay ratings, participation on other forums, etc do not justify or otherwise replace our rules. Your reputation at CP is all that matters.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on what Tim should do at this point, I just don't know if he will. Also, just speaking for myself, taking my time before adding him to a list has more to do with the fact that if he did the simple things you and others have suggested such an action could be avoided than the fact he has been a friend for many years. I have added several friends to the list in the past and have no problem doing so again, but anyone deserves a chance to speak up first. I know Rod has had to ban some people he was friends with as well. Nobody gets a pass, but sometimes we give people a little breathing room to explain themselves. If they choose not to, that is something that can't be helped.
 
Look, my name is Seth. My screen name being what it is, I still would prefer being called by my name if you're going to constantly post about my comments.



Please ask have Rod change your screen name then if you think it is offensive and don't want folks addressing you as such! DagR6 would work and we still know it's you.
 
Gentlemen...

Boy what a cluster this has turned out to be. I am going to put my faith in the people that know me the best to validate "MY WORD". They know me, and will validate me when I say that there was NO way I ever knew before or soon after the sale of these cigars that there was a possibility of them being presumed fake. I didnt know anything about the possibility of them being fake until these threads started a couple years later.
Just to clarify what happened, I was just the "money man" of these cigars, I never even seen the cigars. ) the only reason I agreed to sell them is because I trusted AB). I communicated and took the orders, and then collected the funds, once the funds were collected, I notified AB that he could ship. He then shipped directly to the buyers, and that was the end of it.
What I later found out was that these cigars were bought from Bruce (another member, at the time was a trusted individual; or at least had no reason NOT to be trusted). I was told that these cigars were bought as singles from broken up cabs, and during the sale tried to convey all of what I knew at the time to all in the sale threads.
I did not profit from the sale of these cigars, I only got a slight discount from the advertized price; of which I bought 3 or 4.

I am truly sorry for the small part I played in this fiasco, I, like you, was a victim in all of this also.
 
Tim,

I know you haven't been active in awhile, but I appreciate that at a minimum, you came back to shed light on your perspective as opposed to disappearing.
 
tkoepp said:
Gentlemen...

Boy what a cluster this has turned out to be. I am going to put my faith in the people that know me the best to validate "MY WORD". They know me, and will validate me when I say that there was NO way I ever knew before or soon after the sale of these cigars that there was a possibility of them being presumed fake. I didnt know anything about the possibility of them being fake until these threads started a couple years later.
Just to clarify what happened, I was just the "money man" of these cigars, I never even seen the cigars. ) the only reason I agreed to sell them is because I trusted AB). I communicated and took the orders, and then collected the funds, once the funds were collected, I notified AB that he could ship. He then shipped directly to the buyers, and that was the end of it.
What I later found out was that these cigars were bought from Bruce (another member, at the time was a trusted individual; or at least had no reason NOT to be trusted). I was told that these cigars were bought as singles from broken up cabs, and during the sale tried to convey all of what I knew at the time to all in the sale threads.
I did not profit from the sale of these cigars, I only got a slight discount from the advertized price; of which I bought 3 or 4.

I am truly sorry for the small part I played in this fiasco, I, like you, was a victim in all of this also.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification!

:thumbs:
 
I don't know who AB is. I don't know Tim.

What I do know is this: if a guy asked me to put my reputation on the line to broker cigars for him to my brothers on this or any other board in exchange for a discount on the purchase of a few of the cigars in question, my spidey sense would be all atingle. How could anyone be that naive? As I said, I don't know Tim but color me skeptical.
 
Van55 said:
I don't know who AB is. I don't know Tim.

What I do know is this: if a guy asked me to put my reputation on the line to broker cigars for him to my brothers on this or any other board in exchange for a discount on the purchase of a few of the cigars in question, my spidey sense would be all atingle. How could anyone be that naive? As I said, I don't know Tim but color me skeptical.
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It's easy to arm chair quarterback and say what you may or may not have done when you already know the outcome of the events.

If it wasn't Tim as an intermediary it would have been someone else. The whole purpose of the scam was to make money. The one caveat is that a extremely large quantity of a VHTF item hitting the markets from one source is bound to raise suspicion. So "they" worked through others, who may or may not have been in the know and then they worked through a seconded layer.

*****I don't know anything more than has been posted here at CP, but in general that is how things work. So even though you or I might not have done it, if Tim hadn't someone else would. I don't know if AB knew these to be fakes or not, the thing to realize is that people were "chosen" as brokers/intermediaries because of their reputations.*****
 
I would respectfully suggest that brokered sales be prohibited in the future. It seems to me that there are too many potential problems with these kind of sales.
 
Thanks Tim. I was really hoping you would come back and have your say. I'm glad you did.
 
Thanks for replying Tim. You removed a large weight from my heart in doing so.
 
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