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Fake Davidoff and Dunhills sold on CP

BobbyRitz said:
moki said:
souldog said:
I understand this is a "bigger than board" issue, but I agree with the assessment that Tim is responsible. It's how we've done it, why change it now just because we're dealing with VHTF cigars/fakes? Spiffy sold OR Anejos that he's made claim that weren't fake. They turned out to be, and he was made responsible. He's made good on everything now, and good for him. The key word to me in this situation is "precedence."
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I have to agree with this. Tim arranged the sale, the money went to him, the cigars came from him.

He should refund those who want refunds, in exchange for them returning the cigars to him in the same shape they were shipped to them.

It's then his problem to get reimbursed from the original seller of the cigars (and then in turn, it's Allan's problem to get reimbursed from Bruce, and Bruce from his source, and so on and so forth).

If you no longer have the cigars you purchased from Tim, or they have been damaged in any way in the interim, you're out of luck, IMO.

Or if he really feels he should be abdicated of any responsibility, at worst, he should post Allan's, address and phone number, and say "Here, go get 'em"
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Not exactly true, Andrew. It's my understanding that the cigars were shipped directly from the collector. I could be wrong as I haven't discussed this with Tim directly.

For the record, I agree with those who state that Tim was not directly responsible here. I hear Jon on his post, though. It's quite the conundrum. I do know that Tim is a good guy that would never knowingly defraud anyone.
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That is correct Rob.

Tim was my point of contact and who I wrote and mailed the checks to. The cigars were mailed from someone else at a different location though. Can't remember any specifics though.
 
jfields said:
Tim was my point of contact and who I wrote and mailed the checks to. The cigars were mailed from someone else at a different location though. Can't remember any specifics though.
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And the plot thickens...

You still sent the money to Tim, though. Why couldn't you have mailed it to the guy with the cigars, and Tim just be a go-between for communication? I still see it as he took the money, and brokered the deal. I personally wouldn't sell cigars for anyone if I didn't physically have them in my possession, or ever see them.

We'll see how this unfolds, and if Tim has any words.

What a Cluster-fuck.
 
Since some of you guys started asking for his head on a plate, I doubt highly we will hear anything from Tim.
 
I honestly don't see where anyone is calling for Tim's head, only an explanation. I understand that his sale of these cigars here is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg, but it is the only portion that took place here and it deserves a discussion in my opinion. And so far this discussion has remained civil and levelheaded. I think this reinforces the guideline that you only sell cigars that are in your possession. While this may not have prevented people ending up with fakes, there at least would've been a chance that he spotted some inconsistencies. I know many other knowledgeable people did not, but the odds are better than if he didn't see them at all.
 
Wurm said:
Since some of you guys started asking for his head on a plate, I doubt highly we will hear anything from Tim.
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Name on person who has done this Shawn?

Just seems to be the majority speaking that he brokered the sale, took the money, so precedence sets that he is ultimately responsible. We can't hold one member accountable then not speak our mind about the other, and the situation because we all like and trust him. It's not how we do it here.

Stating he is responsible and wishing he would come out to make a statement is all I've seen, and is not the same as asking for his head on a plate.

As much of an asshatt weasel most of us all thought Spivy was, he at least had the fortitude to come out to say his piece. I seem to remember that situation being WAY more intense than this one currently is when he did speak.
 
Wurm said:
Since some of you guys started asking for his head on a plate, I doubt highly we will hear anything from Tim.
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Shawn, you need to remove your emotions from the situation. I like Tim, I did a couple transactions with him that went well. I have no reason to call for his head, besides the fact that he brokered the sale and based on precedence is responsible.

You got upset earlier at dago, which I felt was unfair of you as he was reasonably upset that he got taken for a large amount of money, and now you're claiming that the community here is demanding his head? No bro, just some sort of correspondence from him on this cluster.

I agree with John, nobody here is demanding his head. Just requesting and voicing their desire to see him speak on his level of knowledge and involvement in the sale.
 
Dago was the first. Just put me in Tony's camp that Tim saying anything won't make a difference or provide closure and I'll be done with this.

Like I said I don't agree with how Tim is handling this, I also don't agree that he is the one that needs to pay anyone back. He should provide the name and address of the person he brokered the cigars for (while doing a favor for the CP members who like these type of cigars), say he's sorry to the CP community and leave again.

I put the blame on the people all over the online cigar world who have been suspecting these were fakes for years and did nothing about it. Thus letting hundreds of people lose their hard earned money.

Super happy this is coming out now, really mad that it didn't come out sooner, and really sad that Tim is going to take the brunt of the blame here for being "the messenger".

*edit* And Jon, I got mad at Dago for his "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay mooooooooooooooooooooooooooore reliable" comment. Other than being the broker for this deal, Tim hasn't a blemish on his reputation here at CP, so Dago's comment was uncalled for.
 
Wurm said:
Dago was the first. Just put me in Tony's camp that Tim saying anything won't make a difference or provide closure and I'll be done with this.

Like I said I don't agree with how Tim is handling this, I also don't agree that he is the one that needs to pay anyone back. He should provide the name and address of person he brokered the cigars for (while doing a favor for the CP members who like these type of cigars) say he's sorry and leave again.

I put the blame on the people all over the online cigar world who have been suspecting these were fakes for years and did nothing about it. Thus letting hundreds of people lose their hard earned money.

Super happy this is coming out now, really mad that it didn't come out sooner, and really sad that Tim is going to take the brunt of the blame here for being "the messenger".

*edit* And Jon I got mad at Dago for his "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay mooooooooooooooooooooooooooore reliable" comment. Other than being the broker for this deal Tim hasn't a blemish on his reputation here at CP, so Dago's comment was uncalled for.
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He was more of a salesman, IMO.

No one's called for Tim's head...just an explanation. You yourself agreed....

Wurm said:
<snip>
And to be right up front about my opinion, if Tim decides to run and hide then he deserves any and all wrath he ends up pulling down upon himself and I'll step back and out of the matter.
<snip>
If he doesn't, well then... TALLY-HO!
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As to whether or not people feel they are owed a refund....that's between them and Tim. Tim may not be capable of making everyone whole, and I'm sure most people will realize the magnitude and not hold Tim responsible, cutting their losses. However, that might not be the case with everyone. Tim may not be able to make everyone whole...but if he tried to rectify the CP portion of this instead of disappearing (knowing all this is going on) then I know many brothers here would not hold ill will.

Tim coming back and making a "I got taken too" statement is pointless. Tim coming back to help the brothers that were taken by a sale he brokered, even if he couldn't personally repay them all...is a whole different story. However, some may want the reimbursements for the cigars, and I think they are entitled to them.

Spivy was responsible for over $7,500...and it might have taken him awhile, but he repayed everyone in full. I don't see where this is much different to the CP community.
 
Tim left before this came to light. No one can question him leaving for his own reasons that had nothing to do with this goat-fuck over a year later.

My Tally-Ho comment was made before I knew that, and still stands. As does my opinion that this cannot be compared to Spivy's mess for a large amount of reasons.

I do think Spivy is the better man for owing up to his blunder, but his was a case of too much too fast. Tim's case was brokering a deal for cigars, that a majority of people considered legit for many years, from a source they also considered beyond reproach (except for those who had suspicions but chose to do nothing about them but whisper in the background). That's the reason Spivy's deal blew up a few days after it happened and that this took two years.

The OR Anjeos were painfully obvious, the Cuban Davidoffs and Dunhills were not. The source of the OR Anjeos was a known scum-bag, the source of the Cuban Davidoffs and Dunhills was (*edit* and still is by many) considered impeccable.
 
BigJake6904 said:
He was more of a salesman, IMO.
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Except salesmen make a profit. Depends on what you want to believe about the original thread. Since I believe Tim's statement that he made no profit, I disagree with you.

*edit* to change man into men :rolleyes:
 
You're a good man Shawn, I admire your loyalty, but he doesn't deserve it, if he doesn't come forward.

Doc.
 
Yeah your right Doc, I'm just making sure my point is made. now its up to Tim to vindicate my effort, something I just don't think is going to happen.
 
Given that these have been circulated here and elsewhere I am going to cross post this information. It has been determined that Bruce Taira (Bruce) has circulated a vast amount of fake vintage cigars, namely Dunhills and Davidoffs, over the course of many years. It is unclear whether he did it knowingly or unknowingly, but his response has been to deny they are counterfeit. He has been added to the scumbag list and any dunhills or davidoffs purchased from him should be considered suspect. We know he also has had plenty of legitimate product over the years but that is irrelevant to this issue. It is a very unfortunate circumstance but one that needs to be put in the open. Related to this situation, ChiBnkr has also been added to the list for circulating significant amounts of counterfeit vintage/rare cigars including 1492s, 1994s, Partagas 150s, Dunhills and Davidoffs. If you think your stock may be affected please read the links below, there is some good information on tell-tale signs to look for.

There is still work underway and I cannot and will not provide more detail on that. There may also be more names added to the list, and there will definitely be detailed entry pages with archived information for any entries that are made. The discussions thus far are linked below:

http://www.internationalcigarclub.com/forums/showthread.php?24120-Davidoff-amp-Dunhill-Cigar-Issue
http://www.havanaboards.com/showthread.php?101-Dunhill-Thread...continued
http://www.internationalcigarclub.com/forums/showthread.php?23950-Partagas-150th-Band-Variation-or-Fake&highlight=ChiBnkr
http://www.gartrader.com/forums/topic/3327-should-bruce-be-fried/
http://www.cigarpass.com/forumsipb/index.php?showtopic=54147&st=0
http://www.cigarpass.com/forumsipb/index.php?showtopic=69402&st=0
 
Wurm said:
Yeah your right Doc, I'm just making sure my point is made. now its up to Tim to vindicate my effort, something I just don't think is going to happen.
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Doc is right and Tim was given every chance to address the issue. Shawn you have been a good friend, but this one is in the books as they say.

Phil great job on this whole issue as well as the cast of thousands that added to bringing this out to the open.
 
Now the question for the future is how polluted is the market?

I've decided a long time ago that I would always shy away from Dunhill & Davidoff because there is no way to guarantee how many times they have exchanged hands before they got to me but now there is no real way to guarantee if they ever came from Bruce or not.
 
tone-ny said:
Doc is right and Tim was given every chance to address the issue. Shawn you have been a good friend, but this one is in the books as they say.

Phil great job on this whole issue as well as the cast of thousands that added to bringing this out to the open.
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Thanks Tony, that means alot to me. And I agree 100%, Phil awesome job brother! :thumbs:
 
BobbyRitz said:
Not exactly true, Andrew. It's my understanding that the cigars were shipped directly from the collector. I could be wrong as I haven't discussed this with Tim directly.

For the record, I agree with those who state that Tim was not directly responsible here. I hear Jon on his post, though. It's quite the conundrum. I do know that Tim is a good guy that would never knowingly defraud anyone.
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That being the case, I think if Tim posted "Sorry... here's the guy's contact info", I think that'd be reasonable.

Anyway, regarding how polluted the market is, I think there are a lot of these cigars out there. I doubt I'll be buying any of these brand cigars unless I know their exact pedigree.
 
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