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When it's not alright to pass a "Cuban" cigar

I hand you two bars of soap. One is made by the industrial giant Procter and Gamble while the other is made by company that supports Fair Trade and is made by indigenous peoples in Tanzania. Both are soap. Both work. But I'll feel a lot better about myself buying and using the Fair Trade soap.


Wilkey
:0 :0 :0 .....I work for the company that makes the soap in liquid form ( before they add more binder and perfume) that goes to Proctor&Gamble for bars of soap! Wilkey, you're gonna put me out of a job! :laugh:
 
With ANY cigar im looking forward to i "meditate" on the state and taste of the cigar. If you smoke 10 cigars unbanded and dont get at least 50% correct than why the heck waste your money buying ISOM AT ALL? You could just go down to the corner grab a stick call it cuban and your golden. Cubans are not better they are differant. If the differance is not noticeable than again your wasteing money, time and possible runins with the law. In truth who cares? So go for it smoke 10 i would. If im totally wrong ill never have need to buy another cuban. Plus i had a good time testing them...lol
If your a ISOM fanatic and cant tell 10 friggin cigars from one another you need to rethink your smokeing. Unless you just have money to burn.
 
My older brother and I used to have battles of Yes or No to solve our disputes. The key to the game was to trip up the other person by taking the side that was not your own then quickly switching back. Give it a try?

-Mark
 
Andrew and Wilkey..............please, will both of you just shut up and get back to your respective porn careers! ??? :laugh:

Really good information from both of you guys and well argued/articulated as well. I have to admit, I was in the "I can tell what a cuban tastes like" camp until recently. I had an unbanded Fundadore from '98(did not know it beforehand) and I could have sworn it was a cameroon wrapper cigar. I honestly thought it tasted like a Litto cabinet smoke! It was a very good smoke, just nothing like I expected it to be.

I would be shocked to get 50% correct in a blind tastes test.

Exactly... I have found myself in exactly that type of embarrassing situation as well :)
 
Andrew and Wilkey..............please, will both of you just shut up and get back to your respective porn careers! ??? :laugh:

Really good information from both of you guys and well argued/articulated as well. I have to admit, I was in the "I can tell what a cuban tastes like" camp until recently. I had an unbanded Fundadore from '98(did not know it beforehand) and I could have sworn it was a cameroon wrapper cigar. I honestly thought it tasted like a Litto cabinet smoke! It was a very good smoke, just nothing like I expected it to be.

I would be shocked to get 50% correct in a blind tastes test.

:D I remember you calling your brother about this. :laugh:

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Oh goat boffer, of course you'll be inclined to enjoy it more. And why shouldn't you? Smoking for pleasure is not a strictly objective exercise and it is not as unidimensional as the mere "taste" of a cigar. When you smoke a Cuban cigar, you are not just combusting leaf and measuring the byproducts. You're meditating on the tradition of the Cuban cigar and the history of tobacco in the New World. In locking in on the "meme" theory, you're chasing a narrow goal and have devised a fallacious test in an attempt to reveal and discredit this prejudicial mechanism on the assumption that it is by definition, evil.

If someone claims that they can tell the taste of a Cuban cigar, or that there is a Cuban-esque taste that pervades all cigars from Cuba, and isn't present in cigars from anywhere else (as some have stated here), then the test is not fallacious at all.

If they really believe what they are saying, they damn well better be able to pick out what cigars are Cuban and what cigars are not. Otherwise the concept of the "taste of a Cuban cigar" is nothing more than a marketing punch line.

I'm not assuming that this prejudice is "evil" at all -- but rather proceeding from the perspective that when one is plunking down money on something they should do so on the basis of what they actually enjoy the taste of.

If they derive pleasure from the "forbidden fruit" or the idea that they are smoking a luxury item, that's fine too... but call a spade a spade, and know that this is what it's about.

Let's face it, common form in the cigar maniac world (of which we are all a part if we're posting on this board) is that Cuban cigars are what you "graduate to" when your "tastes develop". Based on the blind taste tests that I've seen, no only is this not true, but most people can't tell if a cigar is Cuban or not anyway.

So... smoke what you like, and don't make pretensions about a cigar based on what island it happens to come from. Same thing with wine; drink what you like, but don't think that "French wine" is inherently better tasting than wine from, say, Napa. Because in both cases, blind taste tests do not bear out conventional wisdom on these matters.

Does that which has no sensory effect have meaning? Sure. I hand you two bars of soap. One is made by the industrial giant Procter and Gamble while the other is made by company that supports Fair Trade and is made by indigenous peoples in Tanzania. Both are soap. Both work. But I'll feel a lot better about myself buying and using the Fair Trade soap.

But which one gets you cleaner and makes you smell better? Honestly, that's all I'd care about, moral issues aside. The moral issues of "fair trade" etc. are a red herring, especially in this case, considering that cigars from Cuba are illegal under the "Trading with the Enemy" act, and it would be quite a stretch to consider contributions to Fidel's coffers as a humanitarian gesture.
 
So Andrew,

Let's say that there's this guy living overseas, let's say he's living in Japan.

Now this guy (let's go ahead and call me 'Pete" for now) can tell what a Cuban cigar tastes like vs a NC Cuban cigar. How on earth can you ever get a guy like this to eat crow? ???

:D
 
So Andrew,

Let's say that there's this guy living overseas, let's say he's living in Japan.

Now this guy (let's go ahead and call me 'Pete" for now) can tell what a Cuban cigar tastes like vs a NC Cuban cigar. How on earth can you ever get a guy like this to eat crow? ???

:D

Oh stop heh -- Petecaps is a good guy, that taste test wasn't about making him eat crow. It was about expanding your tasting horizons and seeing what you really like... breaking through the perception issue.

Petecaps is a great guy that I've hung out with on a number of occasions... I definitely was not trying to embarrass him at all, and it was I think interesting for all involved.
 
Your so correct. Except to hell with moral issues when it comes to that the US is well one of the worst, i'll fill anyones pockets as long as the smoke is good.

And as for NO sensory affect? Come on were talking about soap and cigars, two things that access your senses in multiple ways.

If its better to smoke cuban you need to be able to prove it. As said above if you cant or are even worried that you cannot than why? because your cool to say you have cubans?

I have not done any test like this, but id be thinking about what kind of mutual fund or account overseas i could have by now wasteing my cash on cubans if i could not pick better than 50%.
 
Your so correct. Except to hell with moral issues when it comes to that the US iI have not done any test like this, but id be thinking about what kind of mutual fund or account overseas i could have by now wasteing my cash on cubans if i could not pick better than 50%.

I agree, except that many Cuban cigars are not more expensive than many non-Cuban cigars. RASS, for instance, are significantly less expensive than Padron 1964/1926 or an Opus X Robusto.
 
So Andrew,

Let's say that there's this guy living overseas, let's say he's living in Japan.

Now this guy (let's go ahead and call me 'Pete" for now) can tell what a Cuban cigar tastes like vs a NC Cuban cigar. How on earth can you ever get a guy like this to eat crow? ???

:D

Oh stop heh -- Petecaps is a good guy, that taste test wasn't about making him eat crow. It was about expanding your tasting horizons and seeing what you really like... breaking through the perception issue.

Petecaps is a great guy that I've hung out with on a number of occasions... I definitely was not trying to embarrass him at all, and it was I think interesting for all involved.

You don't have to tell me that Pete's a good guy and I don't think that you did it to embarrass him.

Your blind taste test did (hopefully, I think) break down some perceptions, but I’d take the term "perceptions" a step farther and say that quite a few people (like Petecaps) have a bias against any cigar that doesn’t come from Cuba and this is represented in their language when they compare Cuban cigars with NC cigars in a very general way that is so broad that it becomes unclear what they're basing their bias on.

I'd say you challenged his bias and made him think about how he uses his words.
 
You don't have to tell me that Pete's a good guy and I don't think that you did it to embarrass him.

Your blind taste test did (hopefully, I think) break down some perceptions, but I’d take the term "perceptions" a step farther and say that quite a few people (like Petecaps) have a bias against any cigar that doesn’t come from Cuba and this is represented in their language when they compare Cuban cigars with NC cigars in a very general way that is so broad that it becomes unclear what they're basing their bias on.

I'd say you challenged his bias and made him think about how he uses his words.

I hope that's true... because I agree that unfounded bias is an unfortunate thing. Now excuse me while I go drink my Belgian beer with my Italian cheese and French wine, and smoke a Cuban cigar. ;)
 
You have a point there. But the other point is why go through the trouble if you cannot tell? Why wait 60 days or more for shipping, why break the law (no matter how silly it is at this time)? If you are a die hard cubano smoker i feel you should at least get a better than 50% or your just flaunting the fact you have cubans. As for price, it seems to me to be able to match the quality of a 64/24/opus (had to pick my favorites didnt ya) you need to spend a bit more and than even more for shipping.
 
Don't do it, Matt.

The challenge, as formulated, proves nothing at all of consequence. If you'd like 10 cigars to smoke, then take it on. Just understand that neither you nor anyone else could possibly learn anything from this.

Wilkey

...wrong. As formulated, the challenge determines whether someone can pick out the country of origin of any given cigar with reasonable accuracy. A 50/50 result, if the entrant goes into it believing he can indeed discern the country of origin of a cigar by taste, should be considered abject failure, not "the best that anyone could do".

There is no "region E" if you're in the camp that claims they'd "Know Cuban tobacco anywhere" or "There's that certain taste in all Cuban cigars".
I have to agree with Moki on this. I have thought that I could taste whether a cigar is of Cuban origin or not. In the last blind taste test I did, I guessed correctly, but I can't say that I was 100% positive in my guess; it was an educated and calculated guess. I have thought that Cuban cigars are distinguishable from non-Cubans, and have recently challenged my own perceptions. So I have been finding this debate very engaging. :thumbs:

If someone posits that s/he can distinguish a Cuban from a non-Cuban cigar from the taste profile, then it shouldn't matter what the cigar is, it should still be distinguishable. There should be no way to skew the blind test, because the defining characteristics should either be there or not be there in the cigar. This is Moki's point. And basically the person is stating that s/he should be able to pick out the Cuban cigar no matter what quadrant it is in: A, B, C, D, or E.

I have a bias, and am willing to challenge that bias. Moki, I'll take you up on that challenge, and I'll foot the bill for those cigars (just don't break the bank). Let me know how you would like to proceed.

<break>

And as for the original intent of this thread, Kudos Wilkey! No one should pass/gift/trade any cigar that they are not certain of it's authenticity. We take domestics for granted, but I have seen fake Opus and fake Padrons out there as well. This is the biggest reason I have against someone passing on gifted cigars.

Nice topic .. on both fronts! :thumbs:
 
You know, I have this bias too, even if I don't believe it consciously, I can search through my reviews and find it.

I genuinely think that I can tell the difference between a Cuban cigar from a NC cigar. I don’t know why I think this, but I do.

Let me talk to Mike33 and see if he wouldn't want to split ten cigars between ourselves and take the Moki blind taste test challenge together.

Just keep the cigars within reason. I think this should be informative, at least for my own personal bias.

* I do have the feeling that I'll be eating crow throughout the reviews. :blush:
 
Well, how else would it be a "blind" taste testing?? hrm?? :)
 
While you both have valid points you both are blind to a part of each other's argument. Andrew repeating an absolute that there is something in a cuban cigar, ANY cuban cigar that is a defining characteristic and Wilkey is ignoring that. Wilkey is saying that there is a group of singularities which can apply to all cigars and these may (or may not - my words) combine to produce a profile but not an absolute.

If it matters, I agree with Andrew that if you say you can do X you need to be able to do it (whatever it may be) at better than random chance.

Of course, there is always the possibility that I have completely missed the points either of you two are making.
 
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