WOW

[Ginseng]

I will say this. The 1970's Monte No.3 that Tigger provided for a blind review had the whitest, snow white ash (flecked with darker streaks) I've ever seen on a cigar.

Wilkey

Thats because the tobacco quality was excellent.........

* Sigh * The more I hear, the more I come to believe that the golden age of Cuban tobacco is gone. Keep discussing, folks. I'm learning.

Wilkey

 

[cigar smoke]

I will say this. The 1970's Monte No.3 that Tigger provided for a blind review had the whitest, snow white ash (flecked with darker streaks) I've ever seen on a cigar.

Wilkey

Thats because the tobacco quality was excellent.........

* Sigh * The more I hear, the more I come to believe that the golden age of Cuban tobacco is gone. Keep discussing, folks. I'm learning.

Wilkey

Wilkey....... Fear not.......There will come a time when all of the materials associated with world class tobacco growing will be available to Cuba........In a country that has shortages of everything, they are improving measurebly.........When normal relations with the US resume a flood of money will bring back the tobacco quality of yester-years

Bob

 

[Ginseng]

I will say this. The 1970's Monte No.3 that Tigger provided for a blind review had the whitest, snow white ash (flecked with darker streaks) I've ever seen on a cigar.

Wilkey

Thats because the tobacco quality was excellent.........

* Sigh * The more I hear, the more I come to believe that the golden age of Cuban tobacco is gone. Keep discussing, folks. I'm learning.

Wilkey

Wilkey....... Fear not.......There will come a time when all of the materials associated with world class tobacco growing will be available to Cuba........In a country that has shortages of everything, they are improving measurebly.........When normal relations with the US resume a flood of money will bring back the tobacco quality of yester-years

Bob

Yes, but will the genetic legacy still be there? And will it matter? How much is the quality of the cigar and the smoking experience constrained by the genotype of the nicotiana that is planted. Sure terroir will be unchanged and sufficient fertilizer and pesticidal will no longer be a problem but can a high yield, multi-resistance hybrid ever taste as good as the pure black tobaccos of the first half of the last century?

I'm thinking about the analogous situation with phylloxera in Bordeaux. How would wine made from whole plants of that genetic endowment perform compared to the grafted stock that's been around and cultivated for, what, a century?

Wilkey

 

[cigar smoke]

I will say this. The 1970's Monte No.3 that Tigger provided for a blind review had the whitest, snow white ash (flecked with darker streaks) I've ever seen on a cigar.

Wilkey

Thats because the tobacco quality was excellent.........

* Sigh * The more I hear, the more I come to believe that the golden age of Cuban tobacco is gone. Keep discussing, folks. I'm learning.

Wilkey

Wilkey....... Fear not.......There will come a time when all of the materials associated with world class tobacco growing will be available to Cuba........In a country that has shortages of everything, they are improving measurebly.........When normal relations with the US resume a flood of money will bring back the tobacco quality of yester-years

Bob

Yes, but will the genetic legacy still be there? And will it matter? How much is the quality of the cigar and the smoking experience constrained by the genotype of the nicotiana that is planted. Sure terroir will be unchanged and sufficient fertilizer and pesticidal will no longer be a problem but can a high yield, multi-resistance hybrid ever taste as good as the pure black tobaccos of the first half of the last century?

I'm thinking about the analogous situation with phylloxera in Bordeaux. How would wine made from whole plants of that genetic endowment perform compared to the grafted stock that's been around and cultivated for, what, a century?

Wilkey

Excellent points Wilkey.......There may in fact be a difference to the extent that the exact genetics of the tobacco are different.......This could also lead to the best tobacco ever.....even surpassing the 80s and early 90s........Im sure once the Americans get there hands on things over there there will be improvements across the board I hope........

Bob

 

[Ginseng]

Excellent points Wilkey.......There may in fact be a difference to the extent that the exact genetics of the tobacco are different.......This could also lead to the best tobacco ever.....even surpassing the 80s and early 90s........Im sure once the Americans get there hands on things over there there will be improvements across the board I hope........

Bob

Bob,

I'd hazard a guess that you're not the only one with his fingers crossed.

Wilkey

 

[cigar smoke]

Excellent points Wilkey.......There may in fact be a difference to the extent that the exact genetics of the tobacco are different.......This could also lead to the best tobacco ever.....even surpassing the 80s and early 90s........Im sure once the Americans get there hands on things over there there will be improvements across the board I hope........

Bob

Bob,

I'd hazard a guess that you're not the only one with his fingers crossed.

Wilkey

I guess the phrase "cautiously optimistic" would apply ???

 

[jabba]

Wilkey,

why do you have to be so "glass half empty" :laugh:

 

[indyrob]

I will say this. The 1970's Monte No.3 that Tigger provided for a blind review had the whitest, snow white ash (flecked with darker streaks) I've ever seen on a cigar.

Wilkey

Thats because the tobacco quality was excellent.........

* Sigh * The more I hear, the more I come to believe that the golden age of Cuban tobacco is gone. Keep discussing, folks. I'm learning.

Wilkey

Wilkey....... Fear not.......There will come a time when all of the materials associated with world class tobacco growing will be available to Cuba........In a country that has shortages of everything, they are improving measurebly.........When normal relations with the US resume a flood of money will bring back the tobacco quality of yester-years

Bob

Yes, but will the genetic legacy still be there? And will it matter? How much is the quality of the cigar and the smoking experience constrained by the genotype of the nicotiana that is planted. Sure terroir will be unchanged and sufficient fertilizer and pesticidal will no longer be a problem but can a high yield, multi-resistance hybrid ever taste as good as the pure black tobaccos of the first half of the last century?

I'm thinking about the analogous situation with phylloxera in Bordeaux. How would wine made from whole plants of that genetic endowment perform compared to the grafted stock that's been around and cultivated for, what, a century?

Wilkey

Excellent points Wilkey.......There may in fact be a difference to the extent that the exact genetics of the tobacco are different.......This could also lead to the best tobacco ever.....even surpassing the 80s and early 90s........Im sure once the Americans get there hands on things over there there will be improvements across the board I hope........

Bob

With all things considered, I believe that the Cubans have all the past strains available to them and could replant any paticular strain they wanted to. It's impoved logistical research (on a global perspective of what the smokers are asking for) that has probably ushered in the newer strains of tobacco that yeild a more reactive fermentation period than previous strains making for a more "ready to smoke" cigar. There was a remark earlier to the 98's not smoking well, I think the SS96 strain was to blame for that. There was probably a marked difference in the end result than the goverment Agro R&D guys anticipated.

It would be nice if once they developed a strain with fermenting/maturing properties that they were happy with, then they could go back and work with something like the Cabaiguan or Escambray strains from the 70's and make a strain that matured faster that tasted like the older strains.

 

[57Strat]

Looking through my '98 cigars most of them are from January and are from the FR, EL and JM factories. I have been very pleased with them and will continue to enjoy them.

Everyone's mileage may vary...

 

[BobbyRitz]

Very interesting thread. I'm learning as well.

 

[Gonz]

Hello???? WTF? Remove the link!

 

[Ginseng]

I will say this. The 1970's Monte No.3 that Tigger provided for a blind review had the whitest, snow white ash (flecked with darker streaks) I've ever seen on a cigar.

Wilkey

Thats because the tobacco quality was excellent.........

* Sigh * The more I hear, the more I come to believe that the golden age of Cuban tobacco is gone. Keep discussing, folks. I'm learning.

Wilkey

Wilkey....... Fear not.......There will come a time when all of the materials associated with world class tobacco growing will be available to Cuba........In a country that has shortages of everything, they are improving measurebly.........When normal relations with the US resume a flood of money will bring back the tobacco quality of yester-years

Bob

Yes, but will the genetic legacy still be there? And will it matter? How much is the quality of the cigar and the smoking experience constrained by the genotype of the nicotiana that is planted. Sure terroir will be unchanged and sufficient fertilizer and pesticidal will no longer be a problem but can a high yield, multi-resistance hybrid ever taste as good as the pure black tobaccos of the first half of the last century?

I'm thinking about the analogous situation with phylloxera in Bordeaux. How would wine made from whole plants of that genetic endowment perform compared to the grafted stock that's been around and cultivated for, what, a century?

Wilkey

Excellent points Wilkey.......There may in fact be a difference to the extent that the exact genetics of the tobacco are different.......This could also lead to the best tobacco ever.....even surpassing the 80s and early 90s........Im sure once the Americans get there hands on things over there there will be improvements across the board I hope........

Bob

With all things considered, I believe that the Cubans have all the past strains available to them and could replant any paticular strain they wanted to. It's impoved logistical research (on a global perspective of what the smokers are asking for) that has probably ushered in the newer strains of tobacco that yeild a more reactive fermentation period than previous strains making for a more "ready to smoke" cigar. There was a remark earlier to the 98's not smoking well, I think the SS96 strain was to blame for that. There was probably a marked difference in the end result than the goverment Agro R&D guys anticipated.

It would be nice if once they developed a strain with fermenting/maturing properties that they were happy with, then they could go back and work with something like the Cabaiguan or Escambray strains from the 70's and make a strain that matured faster that tasted like the older strains.

Rob,

If I were to read into your first statement, you seem to be implying that the Cubans would have stockpiled seeds from all the strains they have used in the past. This makes perfect sense! I suspect that the Estación Experimental del Tabaco de San Juan y Martínez would be where these legacy seeds are stored.

Now as to the different strains and their characteristics in fermentation, I haven't a clue. But again, what you say does make sense. I wish we had a tobacco expert here who could speak to this. Like you, I also wonder what the Estación might have missed when Sancti Spiritus 96 was commercialized. Do you have any further information on the years of cultivation of that strain and the vintages it might have ended up in? Would 1998 have been the first?

One final point. From a marketing/commercial perspective, reviving the older strains might not meet with wide acceptance with the vast majority of smokers of Habanos who have taken up the hobby in the last decade or two. On the one hand, it's a matter of what you've grown up with and what you have "learned" cigars should taste like. My experience with pre-1980's Habanos is almost nil but they do taste very different from what you can buy today. Perhaps not better, but certainly different.

On the other hand, I could not see Habanos reverting their existing marcas back to these legacy tobaccos. I could more readily imagine a case where they would release Limited or Special issues using these ancient strains and targeting the "connoisseur" of the "old Havana taste."

Wilkey

 

[Burnt Tongue]

Interesting thread! What about technology, would'nt they be able to reproduce just about any year they wanted using new technologies? Cloning etc.

 

[grateful1]

Hello? ??? WTF? Remove the link!

X2 (again)

(edit - @cigar smoke and gator - thanks!)

 

[indyrob]

Rob,

If I were to read into your first statement, you seem to be implying that the Cubans would have stockpiled seeds from all the strains they have used in the past. This makes perfect sense! I suspect that the Estación Experimental del Tabaco de San Juan y Martínez would be where these legacy seeds are stored.

Now as to the different strains and their characteristics in fermentation, I haven't a clue. But again, what you say does make sense. I wish we had a tobacco expert here who could speak to this. Like you, I also wonder what the Estación might have missed when Sancti Spiritus 96 was commercialized. Do you have any further information on the years of cultivation of that strain and the vintages it might have ended up in? Would 1998 have been the first?

One final point. From a marketing/commercial perspective, reviving the older strains might not meet with wide acceptance with the vast majority of smokers of Habanos who have taken up the hobby in the last decade or two. On the one hand, it's a matter of what you've grown up with and what you have "learned" cigars should taste like. My experience with pre-1980's Habanos is almost nil but they do taste very different from what you can buy today. Perhaps not better, but certainly different.

On the other hand, I could not see Habanos reverting their existing marcas back to these legacy tobaccos. I could more readily imagine a case where they would release Limited or Special issues using these ancient strains and targeting the "connoisseur" of the "old Havana taste."

Wilkey

I don't have a complete list of strains, only the partial list.
Escambray- 70
Cabaiguan-72
Habana-PR
Corojo Especial
Habana-92
Criollo- 98
Corojo-99
Habana-2000
Sancti-Spiritus '96

I'm thinking (w/o facts to back it up) that the SS96 crop would be used in 1998-99. The only thing that I can attribute that to is the widespread complaints of cigars from that year. It could also be the change in criollo and corojo wrappers in that year as well. There are many ideas I have, but it's really difficult to track down actual and factual sources to verify.
-Rob

 

[Gator]

Hello???? WTF? Remove the link!

next time don't be so pointed and pissy in your PM, i'll happily remove something if i'm breaking any type of rules (which i didn't realize i was doing). I can't say i appreciate being 'talked' to in such a manner, so don't pm me anymore if you're gonna be a jerk.

 

[BobbyRitz]

This is just me, but it might have been more appropriate to PM your thoughts to Gonz, not bring them to the thread. Just my $0.02.

 

[Gonz]

Hello???? WTF? Remove the link!

next time don't be so pointed and pissy in your PM, i'll happily remove something if i'm breaking any type of rules (which i didn't realize i was doing). I can't say i appreciate being 'talked' to in such a manner, so don't pm me anymore if you're gonna be a jerk.

Why don't you read the rules then. And then lose your attitude and your stay here will be alot nicer. And an apology for your attack on me would be nice too...

 

[Gonz]

And for those wondering, here's a complete quote of my "pissy" pm to this guy:

You need to remove the link you posted in the Hot Deals Section of the board. It is strictly against the board policies to post links to vendors of Cuban Cigars. This has been discussed and argued hundreds of times and the rule still stands. Remove the link.

Yeah, geez, I'm so sorry for being so arrogant and such a jerk in the above pm. You keep right on plugging away there chief, as SC would say, the above quote of mine was Sweetness and Light, don't get me started. And I'll take that apology whenever you are ready.

 

[insight]

Gator.... your account is over a year old and you somehow didn't know it was inappropriate to post links to these retailers? If you kept this private no harm no foul, but you just called out gonz publicly for correcting you privately. He wasn't out of line, he was telling you to obey the rules. You might want to apologize before this escalates unnecessarily