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The Wrapper-Flavor Conundrum: A New Twist

While at the QSH someone asked Sherman this question he put it this way


... the filler is the steak itself while the wrapper is the seasoning.....


I asked the owner of DE la Concha what he thought he said

... the wrapper seems to have the most effect on flavor, because its directly on your lips and tong...
 
Good stuff Wilkey :thumbs:

I respect the rollers opinions, but you have to remember they are just that, rollers. They do not control the blend, and I am sure only a handful of them have a say in what the blend should be like. There are a lot of rollers (not necessarily the ones used in the study) who only smoke the cigars fresh from the table, so I take what they say with a grain of salt. Remember, Pepin, the great blender and roller, said smoking an aged cigar is like smoking hot air or something along those lines. So, in my most humble opinion, I don't feel like rollers are a great source for information on how much flavor the wrapper gives to a cigar.

Having said all that, I'll relate my own personal opinions. There can, and is, a big difference b/w the same cigar that has a different wrapper shade. For instance, Monte #2s with a dark and light wrapper are very distinct in their taste profiles from one another. Another cigar is the Partagas D#4 which normally has a lighter colorado wrapper. I have smoked D#4s with a much darker wrapper and they are much more subdued and "rich" at a young age and lack the typical spiciness of a light colorado wrapped D#4. A lot of guys also ask for a specific wrapper shade when purchasing b/c they either like the aesthetics of it, or they prefer the flavor of a particular shade of wrapper.

Finally, as you referenced with the CM5 and CoRo wrapper switch, there was a stark contrast in the cigars. Anyone who has smoked a CM5 can attest to it tasting nothing like a Cohiba. The idea that Cuba came out with the CM5 would seem to imply that they do believe a cigar's flavor profile is affected by the wrapper.

Personally, I have no idea the % of flavor that comes from the wrapper. I don't know how you would even scientifically come to a conclusion on this point. My feeling is that it is substantially more than 5%.

Very good thread Wilkey :cool:
 
bigwhiteash said:
Not quite what I meant to say, but consider the differences between Hemingway naturals and Maduros, or Padron aniv Nats and maddies. If these are the same blend of filler/binder, then the wrapper, I would say, has a considerable effect on overall flavor.

Makes me wonder if a blender would smoke a particuliar blend WITHOUT a wrapper while developing a cigar?
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I understand now. Intriguing question. From what I understand of the process, whole cigars (including a wrapper, if not the final wrapper) are built up during the blend selection process.

fivebyfifty said:
While at the QSH someone asked Sherman this question he put it this way

... the filler is the steak itself while the wrapper is the seasoning.....

I asked the owner of DE la Concha what he thought he said

... the wrapper seems to have the most effect on flavor, because its directly on your lips and tong...
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Interesting. It's generally believed that the vast majority of the sensory impact of a cigar manifests in the sense of smell. While I can certainly lick my lips and taste the tobacco, it is not at all like what I experience when I expel smoke out through my nose.

Wilkey
 
In my personal experiments with wrapper swaps I also have to say that the % should be abit higher but all my experiences were based on NC cigars, mainly Fuentes. The sole purpose of my experiments was just this, how much does a wrapper effect the overall flavors of a cigar. Why is it that I love hemingway maduros but not so much the regular hemingway. Why is it that I like the flavors of a sun grown wrapper but not so much a natural. Although it did not conclude to a valid or even a reliable answer since I was only able to focus on one brand, I can say that my personal preference has been decided on. At least for the Fuente line.

Now if we're basing this on flavors alone, I would assume the percentage would be in the 10-25% range. [Taking into consideration that you're dealing with 3 factors (binder, filler and wrapper) and the filler having abit more physical properties on a cigar.] But what makes this more complicated, aside from preferences, is what size of a cigar you're dealing with. I know for a fact that certain lines produce different smoking experiences by various ring gauges and lengths (for example: illusione line). If you were to take wrappers off of a 68 and CG4 and throw on a maduro wrapper, would the % vary? I would think so. Is it because of the size or the overall blend of FBW. Would it be a good thing or would it hurt the experience. The only thing I've come to realize is that the wrapper does have large effect on the flavors of a cigar but that percentage would vary depending on size and personal preference of that brand.

Btw, Wilkey did you ever smoke that half-half opus I sent you awhile ago? I think it would a great start to see how you experience the transition from the original opus wrapper to the vsg sun grown. :D

Edit:
I'd be happy to do some rewraps for an established and experience member who would like first hand experience on this topic. One thing to be aware of is how much will personal preference effect your decided percentage for each cigar and will size be a factor.
 
Was that a #4 that you sent me? If so, I've got to go digging to see if I've got any #4s to smoke against it. #5's I've got aplenty.

Thank you for sharing your investigations. I've always maintained that I like sun grown and Ecuador Sumatra cigars, but I have not smoked matched pairs as you have. It would be a worthwhile exercise.

So little time. So many cigars. :)

There have been some great observations and questions in this thread. You guys are a discerning bunch of cigar aficianados!

I'm leaving the office in a few minutes but I'll be back after dinner to post my wacky theory. See you all on the flipside. :thumbs:

Wilkey
 
Ginseng said:
Was that a #4 that you sent me? If so, I've got to go digging to see if I've got any #4s to smoke against it. #5's I've got aplenty.

Thank you for sharing your investigations. I've always maintained that I like sun grown and Ecuador Sumatra cigars, but I have not smoked matched pairs as you have. It would be a worthwhile exercise.

So little time. So many cigars. :)

Wilkey
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Pretty sure it was a 5. Good thing is that the cigar had half vsg and half of the original opus wrapper so you'll get to experience both on one cigar.
 
Ginseng said:
They are employees of the Cuban cigar industry and roll Cuban tobacco exclusively. Interesting question though. I wonder what their thoughts might be if, say, they were to spend any amount of time working with the Fuentes at Chateaux Fuente in the Dominican Republic or the Padrons in Nicaragua.
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Yep, that's what I was getting at. I think it'd be interesting to see if there were any differences in wrapper flavor percentages from country to country and even brand to brand within a country. I'd think it would be almost impossible to make a generic statement saying that the wrapper accounts for X% of the flavor for all cigars given the vast array of flavor profiles and strengths of the filler vs. the wrapper. For cuban blends, perhaps 95% of the flavor does come from the filler, which would be why you don't see 100 different wrappers like you do for other blends. For blends from other countries, the wrapper may make a lot more of a difference, hence the difference in smokes like Hemmingways & Padrons.

I'd love to see this same type of poll across the board with some cross referencing (ISOM vs NC, Countries, Wrappers, etc.) I'd be willing to bet you'd find some interesting trends.
 
I've had the good fortune to smoke quite a few cigars rolled with the same binder and filler...but with different wrappers. The testing was as blind as blind could be because they were rolled locally...but looking back on it now, I wish I was literally blind folded.

To me, the difference was when I put the cigar in my mouth before lighting it and tasted the tobacco on my palate, and I THOUGHT that taste carried through to the initial taste of the cigar upon lighting. Once the cigar was at the 1/4 to 1/3 point, it was very difficult to tell the difference because more powerful tastes came into play. So even if you took two identical cigars with different wrappers and smoked them to a point where the whole 3 leaves played a part in it's taste and switched back and forth, you couldn't get a handle on any of it (I know, sounds stupid but we did it on numerous occasions..lol) You need to smoke it from Point A to Point B to judge it in any manor. Within this group, the opinion was that there was little effect at all. But the minority that didn't subscribe to the rest of the group criticized the rest as being numb-of-tongue!

Some of these sticks were rolled with a Maduro like wrapper (darker, well aged)...and here is where it gets sticky and I said I wish I was literally blind folded...I thought FOR SURE there was a spicier taste to the cigar. Within the group they would insist that a semi-dry aged (3-5 years) wrapper leaf was way more potent/spicier/flavorful than ANY Maduro leaf grown and properly aged....if it could be tasted at all!!!! That's where I gave up because I didn't taste the cigar in that way. I think the visual effect and preconceived notion as to what it would taste like when I looked at it before I lit it effected me...I think. That's the only other thing I could think of.

Few native Cuban cigar veterans I ever met held any faith in the way of a wrapper leaf effecting a cigar's taste...they looked more for a stout, non veiny leaf to support the inside where the flavor originates. The wrapper was no more than a vehicle to display their prowess, skill, and pride as a roller....end of discussion. The highest source of debate was the blending, the wrapper was inconsequential....as long as it didn't interfere with the rest of the cigar, it was acceptable.

All I could do is add more confusion to this debate and be of NO HELP in bringing it to a conclusion!
 
I fully agree with your point that an individuals experience depends heavily on that persons ability to DESCRIBE that experience, whether to him/herself, or others. I also feel strongly that there is more to any smoking experience than what I taste, or smell. In MY case, I'm more inclined to find more flavor in a darker habano or sungrown wrapper than any Connecticut shade wrap, simply because the LOOK more flavorful.


it is entirely possible that those whose job it is to taste test cigar production do not reckon the experience in the same way as customer-connoisseurs do.
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That sentance says a lot about the data collected from rollers/tasters. I'm positive they don't mull over a cigar the same as someone like me, who spends hard earned money on something they produce hundreds of in a given day. I will FIND flavors in a $20.00 cigar :D
 
Devil Doc said:
I sure would like to hook Wilkey up to an EEG when he's smoking a cigar.

Doc.
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:laugh: I'm quite certain he'd short circuit the damn thing!

That's actually a very interesting discussion Wilkey, and makes a lot of sense, especially your point of language shaping our very experience of the world. I've only been able to take a cursory glance at your thesis paper. :sign: I have to come back to it later once the kids get settled in. I also think that Irish had a good point as well, which was actually touched on by ironpeddler. Maybe cuban cigars do differ from cigars from other regions in that the majority of cuban cigar's flavor comes from the filler, and the wrapper is just there to "season it" so to speak, and finish it off. Where on the other hand a Dominican cigar, such as Fuente, achieves a more balanced contribution of flavors from the filler, binder and wrapper. That could be an explanation why we see such a broad range of wrapper types from most cigar producing regions and a lack thereof from Cuba. This is all so fascinating.
 
Well that was a fun and thought provoking read!
I think I'd like to try that EEG thing now.

I don't really think that a certain percentage could hold consistent across the board.
I like the spice theory. The sum being greater than the parts. Two or three things being synergistic, and creating a flavor, or bringing out qualities in another just by being used together.
I've heard that Pepin uses two binders. He apparently thinks it adds some very special characteristics to a blend.
I do a lot of cooking. I know that if I don't add a small percentage of something to a dish, it won't taste the same, or just not taste good, period.
I know that alcohol brings out certain flavor components of a tomato, that WILL NOT come out otherwise.
I believe we may have the same thing going on here with tobacco, etc.

I've played around with wrappers and binders for years. For instance, I love wrapping the leftover wrapper of a VSG torpedo around a LFD DL chiselito. It changes the character of the cigar quite a bit. I love it.
I've tried smoking just the wrapper of cigars, and they taste very floral, and not very reminiscent of the cigar. Or the wrapper and binder,and still not reminiscent of the whole cigar at all.
I smoked the wrapper of a very fresh PSD4, and it was dead on the major flavor I had while smoking. That same flavor lingered on my lips for quite a long time..maybe an hour. So that wrapper dominated my senses.
I do know that some blenders do, as Ironpeddler did, smoke the components by themselves to determine how to use, and what to use, etc. That is a talent that I guess can be learned with repetition.
 
Time for Dave's attempt at sounding smart...

In my experience, it is a three part combination that equates to a whole greater than the sum.

1) How much would you say the sense of smell plays in terms of taste? Arguably, 70% is the general idea. Can't taste much with a stuffed nose.

2) In terms of cigars, how is the binder and filler treated prior to production? I smoked a VSG recently with no wrapper as it was badly damaged from being mishandled in my pocket, sans cellophane. It still had it's fundamental VSG taste. Other cigars, such as the 858 Flor Fina binder and filler taste like crap without the wrapper. In terms of these two cigars, I would hazard that the overall concept is based on a range between two theories, extreme specialization (the VSG for it's unique distinctive taste) and the overall symbiotic balance of each leaf playing a part (the 858). There is a gradient connecting the two, but I don't have the ability to differentiate nuances well enough to place cigars to their corresponding shade of gray.

3) Quality of fundamental resources such as environment, tercerdor skill, age, chemical reactions in fermentation and combustion, and of course personal preference. A box of cigars might vary immensely from an identical box of the same brand/size but made at a different point in time. Corojo leaf might be more tasty than Connecticut Broadleaf for some, and opposite for others.

Taking these separate ideas into one, the wrapper would account for a majority of the taste. Your mouth has direct contact with the wrapper leaf, your nose has direct contact with the trail smoke that is dominated by the wrapper's combustion, and if a person's preference happens to fit majestically with what's happening in the cigar, then we have entered flavour country. The percentage will vary from cigar to cigar, person to person. For myself, a VSG's wrapper might account for only 10% of it's flavour, while an 858's wrapper might account for almost all it's flavour.

On a side note, to argue the point of the Cabanos Habanos, the tobacco has very little deviation, the cigars are exposed to the same climate and don't experience vast differences in soil quality, a such is the bane of most puros. You know what you get, and it is consistent, but never surprising, nor evolving. Their model follows that of the extreme specialization (well in my opinion anyway). Is it any wonder why all these Cuban tercerdors weigh in at such low percentages of how much the wrapper contributes to taste?
 
Ginseng said:
On the face of it, this sounds like those who are actually involved in making our beloved Habanos attribute almost no significant influence of the wrapper to the taste of the cigar. Curiously, in a semi-controlled experiment carried out by a person in the cigar industry, whom I consider to have a knowledgeable palate, the findings were that in the case of a Cohiba Robusto and Cohiba Maduro5 Genios wrapper swap, the wrapper contributed the entirety of the essential character of the cigar.
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Interesting... because people like Carlito Fuente, Orlando Padrón, and others in the cigar business seem to take a very different attitude, believing the wrapper contributes a significant portion of the flavor.

It could be in part that Cuba just doesn't have the same range of wrappers to work with. There is a big difference in taste between CT Broadleaf Maduro and Cameroon, for instance... neither of which will you find on any Habanos.

I think how much as a % the wrapper makes up is not that important... just as if you have a spicy Thai dish, the pepper makes up only a small % of the meal, but contributes a large part of the flavor. I've had the same blend filler with several different wrappers on it, and to me, the wrapper made a large difference in the taste of the cigars.

As a simple test, try an 858 Maduro, 858 Natural, 858 Candela, 858 Sungrown, and 858 Rosado... I think you will definitely find more than a 5% taste difference between them.
 
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