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The Letters - Update December 21, 2008
- Thread starter Ginseng
- Start date
Non-US residents (i.e. those on visit, student visas) are still curtailed from purchasing or importing cuban cigars to the USA, as i understand it. If you meant non-US residents/citizens in other countries, then ofcourse they are within their right to do as they please. I wasnt quite sure of what you meant, so just wanted to further clarify. Correct me if i am wrong please.
Regards. Shikar.
Good point. My interpretation, which is only one of several possible ones, was of non-US nationals residing off US territory.
Wilkey
Wilkey, thanks for the discussion.
Personally, I think it just may be time for those who are willingly breaking the law to stop. Tinfoil hats and all joking aside if Uncle Sam has decided to pursue this there really is only one course of action to take....STOP doing something you know you shouldn't be doing.
The Dominicans, Hondurans and Nicaraguans make some darned fine products. Maybe we in the good ole USA will have to stick with these from now on. It wouldn't be such a great shame.
And to put MY tin foil hat on, I don't really think we are all that far away from the day tobacco is outlawed altogether in the US.
Personally, I think it just may be time for those who are willingly breaking the law to stop. Tinfoil hats and all joking aside if Uncle Sam has decided to pursue this there really is only one course of action to take....STOP doing something you know you shouldn't be doing.
The Dominicans, Hondurans and Nicaraguans make some darned fine products. Maybe we in the good ole USA will have to stick with these from now on. It wouldn't be such a great shame.
And to put MY tin foil hat on, I don't really think we are all that far away from the day tobacco is outlawed altogether in the US.
UPDATE February 26, 2007
My source made a mistake and in so doing, gave me erroneous information. Here are portions of our communications.
to which I responded:
and received this in return:
I subsequently received communications from the vendor in question. He raised some relevant points regarding the new payment gateway and the timing of the letter and in fact at least one member contacted me with questions about this as well. I passed on to my source what was given to me by the vendor and finally received this:
So, the bottom line is as follows:
1. The period of interest as far as the OFAC investigation has not changed and remains early 2004 to late 2005.
2. I am aware of no reports of letters being received for purchases made in 2006 or 2007.
3. I am aware of no reports of letters being received in response to purchases made through any of the recently established payment processing gateways.
4. Nobody has any plausible explanation of OFAC's motivation for this specific investigation. We simply do not know what the triggers for this sweep are although the rules and laws are documented and clear. In other words, no one knows why now and why only this time frame of interest.
I deeply regret that I presented inaccurate information to the community. In my haste to inform others of what I perceived as a new and imminent threat, I checked but did not double check my information. And for that I apologize to the community members as well as the vendor. I will continue to maintain that my primary responsibility is to obtain, analyze, and disclose relevant information to my fellow cigar smokers but from this point onward, I will maintain open communications with the vendor as well.
As to whether this or any vendor should be placed on "no-buy" lists, I leave that to your individual discretion and risk tolerance level.
Wilkey
***********************************************
UPDATE February 25, 2007 - RESCINDED and RETRACTED
Late Breaking News - I just received a first hand report of a W-Letter being received for a purchase under $500 made within the last month to one of the targeted Hong Kong-based vendors. There are two truly troubling aspects to this notification.
1. The purchase was recent, thus negating the prior assumption that the only period of interest was early 2004 to late 2005. Clearly, the attention this vendor is receiving is ongoing and intensive.
2. This purchase was made using the second, newly established payment gateway. This means that all known payment options are at risk. Further, the evidence now strongly suggests that the two major credit card providers (of cards in traditional or pre-paid format) are implicated in the turning over of purchase and account information to OFAC.
Based on this most recent disclosure, I'm motivated to publically voice my position on this vendor. This is the position I've been offering in response to private inquiries. This vendor should be placed on the "No-Buy" list until further notice. Furthermore, I would place all vendors from the Hong Kong region on the "No-Buy" list.
Another prominent forum has recently expressed the intent to throttle down the "look what Cuban cigars I just bought" threads in response to this climate of scrutiny. Prior to these events, this forum was well known for this type of public disclosure and some would say flouting of the law. Now it appears that the situation has become sufficiently worrisome for them to change something fundamental to their culture.
Folks, these are dangerous times. Be safe.
Wilkey
My source made a mistake and in so doing, gave me erroneous information. Here are portions of our communications.
source said:
to which I responded:
Ginseng said:
and received this in return:
source said:
I subsequently received communications from the vendor in question. He raised some relevant points regarding the new payment gateway and the timing of the letter and in fact at least one member contacted me with questions about this as well. I passed on to my source what was given to me by the vendor and finally received this:
source said:
So, the bottom line is as follows:
1. The period of interest as far as the OFAC investigation has not changed and remains early 2004 to late 2005.
2. I am aware of no reports of letters being received for purchases made in 2006 or 2007.
3. I am aware of no reports of letters being received in response to purchases made through any of the recently established payment processing gateways.
4. Nobody has any plausible explanation of OFAC's motivation for this specific investigation. We simply do not know what the triggers for this sweep are although the rules and laws are documented and clear. In other words, no one knows why now and why only this time frame of interest.
I deeply regret that I presented inaccurate information to the community. In my haste to inform others of what I perceived as a new and imminent threat, I checked but did not double check my information. And for that I apologize to the community members as well as the vendor. I will continue to maintain that my primary responsibility is to obtain, analyze, and disclose relevant information to my fellow cigar smokers but from this point onward, I will maintain open communications with the vendor as well.
As to whether this or any vendor should be placed on "no-buy" lists, I leave that to your individual discretion and risk tolerance level.
Wilkey
***********************************************
1. The purchase was recent, thus negating the prior assumption that the only period of interest was early 2004 to late 2005. Clearly, the attention this vendor is receiving is ongoing and intensive.
2. This purchase was made using the second, newly established payment gateway. This means that all known payment options are at risk. Further, the evidence now strongly suggests that the two major credit card providers (of cards in traditional or pre-paid format) are implicated in the turning over of purchase and account information to OFAC.
Based on this most recent disclosure, I'm motivated to publically voice my position on this vendor. This is the position I've been offering in response to private inquiries. This vendor should be placed on the "No-Buy" list until further notice. Furthermore, I would place all vendors from the Hong Kong region on the "No-Buy" list.
Another prominent forum has recently expressed the intent to throttle down the "look what Cuban cigars I just bought" threads in response to this climate of scrutiny. Prior to these events, this forum was well known for this type of public disclosure and some would say flouting of the law. Now it appears that the situation has become sufficiently worrisome for them to change something fundamental to their culture.
Folks, these are dangerous times. Be safe.
Wilkey
Gonz
Ultra Runner
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,842
Wilkey, I still thank you for your hard work. Either way, I still think it's a prudent venture at this time for anyone who previously broke the law without regard for potential consequences to rethink their actions and perhaps find other cigars that you enjoy.
Black Plague
New Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2006
- Messages
- 539
Whew! We all make mistakes, Wilkey. Good to see it isn't AS bad as we thought a day or so ago.
Yes,
But in truth, we really don't know how dire the situation is. Threat level is back down to orange.
I screw up, I fess up. Seems like a no brainer.
I have to acknowledge the vendor. He sent me several emails when this "news" broke and he stayed civil and directed toward resolving this situation. IMO, as far as factors under his control, he is exercising every possible discretion to insure that the ongoing issues and concerns are managed.
Wilkey
mmburtch
Sleep deprived and cranky
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2006
- Messages
- 4,882
X2
And hey, a little fear to remind those taking these chances that there are very real risks involved. Who's to say, two years from now it could be a different vendor/region/payment method
I have confirmed that this individual's Warning letter referenced a boilerplate value of $250. This seems to fit with the information that suggests transaction values of around $250 and $500 might be trigger points for the W and R letters. Someone on another forum analyzed the enforcement guides for clues about this and I have read it as well and I hope to provide a capsule synposis soon.
Wilkey
Wilkey
Wilkey,
Your efforts on behalf on this community of BOTLs has been outstanding and I personally thank you for your time and efforts. This is a VERY delicate subject and you have done a tremendous job crafting your responses so as to be fair to all parties while communicating as much information as possible. Keep up the good work that you are doing.
Your efforts on behalf on this community of BOTLs has been outstanding and I personally thank you for your time and efforts. This is a VERY delicate subject and you have done a tremendous job crafting your responses so as to be fair to all parties while communicating as much information as possible. Keep up the good work that you are doing.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2005
- Messages
- 9,912
Well said, Lou..... :thumbs:
Thanks again, Wilkey, for your efforts on all our behalf.......B.B.S.
Saxjazzman
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 2,505
cigars&rum
"I changed my profile Rod"
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
- Messages
- 312
A big thanks to all your efforts/contribution Wilkey! How do you find the time to do all of this ??? . I guess you function well on very little sleep
McK
McK
There's always so much more to do. And yes, I don't sleep nearly as much as my body needs.A big thanks to all your efforts/contribution Wilkey! How do you find the time to do all of this ??? . I guess you function well on very little sleep
McK
Wilkey
thompsonmkt
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2007
- Messages
- 3
I appreciate all the information on this thread. I was the lucky recipient of a certified "RFI" letter from the Dept of Treas yesterday. I have done a bit of web-research and mostly seems like it is a fishing expedition on the part of the OFAC. I have also spoken to a close friend who got the same letter in September of 2006. Our "transactions in question" according to the letters were in 2004 & 2005. He had an attorney draft a response and sent that response in early October of 2005 and has not heard back since. On my instincts and his advice I hired an attorney today to do just the same. My response will be - of course the truth - that I have no knowledge, records nor information and I have done nothing wrong regarding this letter and to contact my attorney with any further requests/actions.
I will update the form with any further information/actions in my case or any that I have first hand knowledge of.
Is there anyone out there that has first hand knowledge of a letter and what has happened? I have read a lot of others guessing and references from OFAC website, which, don't get me wrong is interesting, but seems to be a lack of people who are involved actually keeping us up to date.
Also, I don't care to debate with anyone whether I have or have not done anything wrong or whether I would again if I had. I am not here to be judged or get legal advice (I will get that from my attorney). I am glad to share information though.
Thanks to (most) all in this thread for the information.
- Mike
I will update the form with any further information/actions in my case or any that I have first hand knowledge of.
Is there anyone out there that has first hand knowledge of a letter and what has happened? I have read a lot of others guessing and references from OFAC website, which, don't get me wrong is interesting, but seems to be a lack of people who are involved actually keeping us up to date.
Also, I don't care to debate with anyone whether I have or have not done anything wrong or whether I would again if I had. I am not here to be judged or get legal advice (I will get that from my attorney). I am glad to share information though.
Thanks to (most) all in this thread for the information.
- Mike