Chris, it's no problem. Naturals are beginning to come out in volume so I don't see real "rarity" issue. Both are great smokes that have the same price tag.
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The GAS Pass
- Thread starter jlada
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Chris, it's no problem. Naturals are beginning to come out in volume so I don't see real "rarity" issue. Both are great smokes that have the same price tag.
Which vitola is the AVO 787?
Don, your dollar for dollar component is excellent, but you have a few rarity/hard to find cigar issues:
1. -------- (7) Anejo 49 Take ----------------------------------- (101) LFD factory press II Put
2. -------- (24) Tat Cojuno 2006 Take ------------------------- (102) Zino Platinum Sceptor Grand Master Put
3. -------- (59) Tat Cojuno 2003 Take ------------------------- (103) LFD Mysterio Nat Put
4. -------- (63) Opus Super Beli Take -------------------------- (104) Graycliff Gran Cru Salomon Put
5. -------- (76) Ashton ESG Churchill Take -------------------- (105) Padilla Miami 8&11 Salomon Put
6. -------- (65) Casa Fuente Churchill Take ------------------- (106) Stradivarius Robusto Put
7. -------- (100) Anejo 77 Take--------------------------------- (107) AVO 787
1. $ for $ is great, but there is a rarity issue. The Anejo is considered HTF/rare. You can rarely find them at any retailer unless they're marked up to many multiples of MSRP. The LFD is common and readibly available at or below msrp in numerous places.
2. Great.
3. Great.
4. Same as #1.
5. Same as #1.
6. Debatable. Casa Fuente cigars carry a component of rarity due to only being able to buy them in one place. The Stradivarius, however, is available pretty much everywhere at or below MSRP. Pretty much identical reasons to #1.
7. Could go either way... can't get Anejos anwhere, and can count how many retailers (that I currently know of) that carry AVO 787s on one hand (at least for the time being). Granted, they're not that rare and someone put a Tatuaje in for one earlier in the pass (which I really didn't have a problem with because I don't consider the 787 "rare".) Fast forward a few months and Anejos will still be nowhere, but 787s will be more readily available. Would love input from other pass members on this trade.
Don, I don't mean to completely shoot down your swaps, just my thoughts and analysis. Anyone elses thoughts?
Don, your dollar for dollar component is excellent, but you have a few rarity/hard to find cigar issues:
1. -------- (7) Anejo 49 Take ----------------------------------- (101) LFD factory press II Put
2. -------- (24) Tat Cojuno 2006 Take ------------------------- (102) Zino Platinum Sceptor Grand Master Put
3. -------- (59) Tat Cojuno 2003 Take ------------------------- (103) LFD Mysterio Nat Put
4. -------- (63) Opus Super Beli Take -------------------------- (104) Graycliff Gran Cru Salomon Put
5. -------- (76) Ashton ESG Churchill Take -------------------- (105) Padilla Miami 8&11 Salomon Put
6. -------- (65) Casa Fuente Churchill Take ------------------- (106) Stradivarius Robusto Put
7. -------- (100) Anejo 77 Take--------------------------------- (107) AVO 787
1. $ for $ is great, but there is a rarity issue. The Anejo is considered HTF/rare. You can rarely find them at any retailer unless they're marked up to many multiples of MSRP. The LFD is common and readibly available at or below msrp in numerous places.
2. Great.
3. Great.
4. Same as #1.
5. Same as #1.
6. Debatable. Casa Fuente cigars carry a component of rarity due to only being able to buy them in one place. The Stradivarius, however, is available pretty much everywhere at or below MSRP. Pretty much identical reasons to #1.
7. Could go either way... can't get Anejos anwhere, and can count how many retailers (that I currently know of) that carry AVO 787s on one hand (at least for the time being). Granted, they're not that rare and someone put a Tatuaje in for one earlier in the pass (which I really didn't have a problem with because I don't consider the 787 "rare".) Fast forward a few months and Anejos will still be nowhere, but 787s will be more readily available. Would love input from other pass members on this trade.
Don, I don't mean to completely shoot down your swaps, just my thoughts and analysis. Anyone elses thoughts?
Darn, didn't know I was that off on alot of em. Took me too long to figure out to then be so off. 
Will take a few more hours to see if I have anything else I can come up with to try. I thought the factory press was a bit rare along with the 787, but no big deal if they are not equal in rarity. Seems I still have a ton to learn about all this!!! As far as the salomons go, I never really see them around so I guess I thought the Vitola would be the rarer part? Dunno. I figured for the strad the slightly higher cost would offset the little rarity the casa fuente would have since it is only rare because of location? Just my .02!
Don
Edit: To add thought processes!
Will take a few more hours to see if I have anything else I can come up with to try. I thought the factory press was a bit rare along with the 787, but no big deal if they are not equal in rarity. Seems I still have a ton to learn about all this!!! As far as the salomons go, I never really see them around so I guess I thought the Vitola would be the rarer part? Dunno. I figured for the strad the slightly higher cost would offset the little rarity the casa fuente would have since it is only rare because of location? Just my .02!Don
Edit: To add thought processes!
Jonesy
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I'm certainly not taking sides in any of this,but one thing I think gets thrown to the wayside during most passes is that it's not what comes back to the host, but the participants being able to get and try a cigar that they might not be able to drive to their B&M and buy to try. I totally agree with rarity/rarity, value/value/,ISOM/ISOM, because that's what CP has been built off of, but I think there has to be some kind of leniency in what is put and taken. For instance, if someone early in the pass put in a cigar that duplicates a cigar already in the pass, then in all good consciousness, you can't tell another member he can't put a duplicate in the pass. Once there are 2 dupes in there, use common sense and think about the guys down the line because then there may be 40 cigars left and 2 of them might have triplicates....that's uncalled for. Rarity is a subjective matter that can sometimes be determined by how often a certain cigar comes out and the dollar value that's placed on the put. For example. You shouldn't take a "shark" and put in a DCM #3 OR 4 because both are readily available while the Shark is hard to come by. To me a suitable trade for a shark would be an Opus that has an MSRP of at least $12. Granted you can't hardly find a Shark for MSRP, but that doesn't matter. In passes if a cigar has an MSRP, that is what you go by and nothing else. You have to make up for that with a certain rarity like an Opus that has limited production and only comes out a few times a year, but it doesn't matter if you see Sharks going for ~$20....you MUST go by the stated MSRP and work off of that. To me a good trade for a shark is a Perfecxion X, Petite Lancero, or Super Beli. With that trade, you've made up for any rarity value with a slight bump in dollar value. The ESG Churchill is a readily available cigar at just about any cigar shop and if the Padilla Salomon has a slightly higher value,then nothing should be wrong with that. If you're saying the Opus Super Beli has a rarity factor tagged to it, what cigar can be traded for it that also has a rarity factor and is also $12+ dollars that doesn't swing the tide towards the host in the end. I think Opus (unless it's a HTF) and rarity are way overrated and as long as you can make up for an Opus trade with a stick that MSRP's for 3-4 dollars more, it should be good or it's coming right back toyou. Like I said in a pm to Jeff, not being able to put a duplicate in a pass can really handcuff a pass participant because with me for instance,most of the NC's I have, are already in the pass and there are no ISOM's (which I have a great deal more singles of). I'm not trying to step on any toes here,but with this being a strictly Non Cuban pass, you have to have some sort of leniancy towards the pass participants or instead of being able to make 5-6 trades. they might only be able to make 2-3 and miss out on a cigar that they've really been wanting to try. JMHO
I'll take a stab at this, Jonesy...
First... I don't know the story here as I haven't even followed this pass, but you asked me to take a look and I will.
Second of all... I would consider the rules of the pass. Does that pass host reserve the right to squash an improper put/take. Maybe more importantly is the pass host experienced? (personally... I can't even begin to know all the smokes that are out there and certainly don't know all the values, etc... but I bounce stuff off other trusted BOTLs).
As far as duplicates go... I let one slide in my pass when I wasn't paying enough attention. When other guys in the pass asked me about their puts/takes and they wanted to put in a duplicate smoke I asked them to reconsider. I just can't see the logic behind loading a pass with the same smokes when there's so many different cigars on the market.
I would PM a guy if I saw him put a smoke that I wanted to try (but didn't have a suitable "put" for) and see if I could work out a trade on the side. Maybe I've got it all wrong, but I assumed the purpose of a pass is to have a variety of smokes circulate... and hopefully everything the host started with is replaced by something completely different (at least that was my hope when I started my pass). I've smoked (virtually) everything that went into my pass and I hope everyone got a chance to try one of the sticks I "put" and enjoyed it as much as I did.
I guess, Jonesy... what I'm trying to say is an answer that I think you already know (and it answers your last statement about a guy in the pass only making a couple plays). NOT EVERYONE HAS A PLAY FOR EVERY SMOKE. And if there's something you really want then figure out other ways to get it.
Passes are a fantastic learning experience for everyone involved (participants and lurkers). I don't know if that answers your question, but it was an attempt. Good luck.
I agree with this portion to a certain extent. On one hand you have being a lenient/generous host. On the other side of the blade, you have redundancy and inequity to the later passers. For example, if someone takes a 10ish dollar Opus (which, in my eyes, carry a "rarity factor", perhaps I am wrong), and puts a 10 dollar "slightly htf" cigar, what's to stop the perpetuation of loss of value and rarity? I don't see that as fair to the later passers. With the duplicate reference - I also believe you're referring to KeithS/TKoepp with the LFD Cammy lancero - which at the time I didn't realize was the same cigar/vitola. How the cigars were "worded" to me, I didn't connect the dots until after I approved. Bonehead move on my part. I later changed the listing to reflect identical cigars. That was my mistake.
Agree.
Sorry if I was mistaken on the availability of the ESG. I really never see the cigar anywhere here in the midwest - and I've been to plenty of B&Ms. I also rarely (if ever) see it online. I consider it relatively hard to find. Once again, my apologies if I was wrong. Perhaps the trade is fine.
I completely understand your logic and reasoning behind the "hand cuffing" on trades, but if you choose to take a list of high dollar/high demand/hard to find cigars, then the pass should be re-imbursed to be fair to all passers down the line. In the current case, five upper tier Fuentes are going on the chopping block -- 2 Anejo, 1 Opus, 1 Casa Fuente, and 1 Ashton. To replace these, an LFD, Padilla, Graycliff, AVO, and Stradivarius are being proposed. While I definitely don't want people to feel "hand cuffed" to trades, I also don't want to promote unfairness or excessive leniency. However, I definitely want a sense of security and fairness that the later passers will have the same opportunities that the first half did. Basically, I want to promote EQUALITY. If five high end cigars are taken from the pass, then I believe the pass should be fortified in an equal manner. Remember, I'm not "handcuffing" anyone to take high end cigars. However, it was explicitly stated that the pass had a relatively high end (for non-Cuban) nature, and if you chose to participate, please have fair puts. In its current state, there are still numerous cigars in the pass that have zero rarity/HTF value.
Also, I couldn't agree more on people missing out on a cigar that they've really been wanting to try -- that's all the fun of a passers. But, it was explicitly stated that if you chose to play, make sure you have the sticks to play. If passer #3 takes a four upper tier smokes that he/she wants to try and puts in four "lenient trades", and #4, #7, and #11 do the same, passer #16 may or may not get the opportunity to get something he wanted to try. I don't see this as fair. In my opinion, host leniency is a definite virtue in passes, but should be used with wise moderation, lest it promote inadequate and unequal opportunity for later passers. Again, in my opinion, I see the foundation of the pass as brotherhood, sharing, learning, and fun - not leaving "what's left" for the later brothers.
Furthermore, as in the theHatguy case, he wanted a Padilla 32 LE Oscuro - a high dollar/HTF cigar, but it's obviously going to take an impressive cigar to take it (very generous BTW Geoff & Brian). Thus, I have no issue setting up a trade with the passer to let him try that cigar. That way, the later passers get equal opportunity to get to try high end sticks. Also, seadub brings up an excellent point (which I respond to later in this "wall o' text" post): if you're wanting to try a stick that is in a pass, but don't have a reasonable put for it, there are many others avenues to find what you're looking for on this board.
As a final note, from the beginning, I took a vote for ISOM vs. non-ISOM and several brothers brought it to my attention that a non-ISOM pass would probably be the best idea -- for very good reasons that I took to heart. I truly wanted to include ISOMs, as I enjoy some of them myself, but opted against it due to warnings from elder brothers.
-----------------------
Moving on....
As stated from the beginning, I wanted everyone to be the judge or rarity. Unfortunately, not too many passers are judging. I have never claimed to be an authority; I just call it like I see it. If I'm wrong, so be it - lesson learned. The value comes from the experience and correction of ignorance.
Could not agree more. I accidentally let one slide early on, too.
Could not agree more, again. If anyone is seeking a certain cigar from the pass that you don't have a proper "put" for, the BST forum is a great platform to post an ISO. If it's not ludicrously HTF, you've been here for a few months, and you contribute -- you'll probably get it.
Very well put. Concise and sage you are, seadub.
Most importantly, from Seadub:
In two posts I've definitely learned a lot. Excellent posts by both Jonesy and seadub.
Look, this to me is all about learning. I have learned a ton just since posting what I thought were good takes and puts. This is not so, so therefore I will switch. This will make it nice and simple. lol. My puts and takes will be (barring any objections):
2. -------- (24) Tat Cojuno 2006 Take ------------------------- (101) Zino Platinum Sceptor Grand Master Put
3. -------- (59) Tat Cojuno 2003 Take ------------------------- (102) LFD Mysterio Nat Put
I do wish to say that I certainly take none of this too personal at all, but to call my puts as excesively not the same is a bit far. Again, I am here to learn and get better at this, and this certainly opened me up a bit more to the rarity sides of things that I just have not been exposed to. No problems, and thanks for letting me play.
Don
Edit: To add that I did not try or want to get any leniency or whatever out of this. I was trying to make what I thought were good puts for some sticks I do not have. Like I said, I want to make sure everyone is happy, since this is after all about meeting people, learning, and a great community.
2. -------- (24) Tat Cojuno 2006 Take ------------------------- (101) Zino Platinum Sceptor Grand Master Put
3. -------- (59) Tat Cojuno 2003 Take ------------------------- (102) LFD Mysterio Nat Put
I do wish to say that I certainly take none of this too personal at all, but to call my puts as excesively not the same is a bit far. Again, I am here to learn and get better at this, and this certainly opened me up a bit more to the rarity sides of things that I just have not been exposed to. No problems, and thanks for letting me play.
Don
Edit: To add that I did not try or want to get any leniency or whatever out of this. I was trying to make what I thought were good puts for some sticks I do not have. Like I said, I want to make sure everyone is happy, since this is after all about meeting people, learning, and a great community.
Jonesy
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Jeff, don't get me wrong, I'd be the first one to squash a $10 Opus for a $10 regular production...that's just not common sense. What I was saying was if someone put in a $15 (say a DCM #3) cigar for a ~$10-$11 Opus, I would let it go simply because there aren't too may limited production cigars out there that would match up dollar wise and then make up in the rarity department. I wouldn't want someone throwing a Tat East Coast in for a xXx just because they have the same dollar value....my only point being that you'd need an anejo (rarity wise)to pop in for a higher dollar Opus and most anejo's are MSRP'ed at $10 or less. Sorry if I came off that way. I was just trying to make a point for all and certainly wasn't criticizing you!
No offense taken at all, Brian! I knew what you meant.
I have told Don I will re-evaluate his trades and get outside opinions from many trusted sources. I completely agree about MSRP, by the way.
As a side note, what is Ashton ESG MSRP - I can't find a definitive source? Still 18-22ish?
I have told Don I will re-evaluate his trades and get outside opinions from many trusted sources. I completely agree about MSRP, by the way.
As a side note, what is Ashton ESG MSRP - I can't find a definitive source? Still 18-22ish?
Jonesy
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Most Ashton's I have seen are in the $18-$22 dollar pice range, but I have no idea what the Padilla salamon runs so I may be completely off base with that one. Just with my experience, the ESG run plentiful down here, but certainly doesn't mean they're easily obtainable there.
edit for spelling
edit for spelling
Yikes, hope they're in a humidor by the register!
No doubt. I have the ESG as 20 bills. The salomon I have at just over 21 bills. After talking ito ver with Jeff, I am revising my takes/puts just a little. My finals will be:
(24) Tat Cojuno 2006 Take ------------------------- (101) Zino Platinum Sceptor Grand Master Put
(59) Tat Cojuno 2003 Take ------------------------- (102) LFD Mysterio Nat Put
(76) Ashton ESG Churchill Take ---------------------(103) Padilla Miami 8&11 Salomon Put
Don
(24) Tat Cojuno 2006 Take ------------------------- (101) Zino Platinum Sceptor Grand Master Put
(59) Tat Cojuno 2003 Take ------------------------- (102) LFD Mysterio Nat Put
(76) Ashton ESG Churchill Take ---------------------(103) Padilla Miami 8&11 Salomon Put
Don
hehe Khari too funny!!! Actually Jeff said the Casa Fuente trade was ok, but since I already talked to you I figured leave it in the pass for someone else that might not get the oportunity!! And thanks again bro. BTW, when are you going? lolol
Don
Chris, is the pass in the air yet? Thanks!
Edit: for spelling
And thanks again bro. BTW, when are you going? lololDon
Chris, is the pass in the air yet? Thanks!
Edit: for spelling