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Newbie Pass 101

MarkJr said:
I would have to agree with Joebunga on this... Even when all is said and done we are talking about less than a dollar difference. I agree that the p/t should be as close as possible, but if a one dollar difference is too large then why is the other one ok? To find an exact match is going to be near impossible, so since it is going to be less than a 10% difference I don't see this as being a big deal.
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I second this. I say that with the presented research (from everyone combined) we can call this P/T a fair one.

_craig_
 
MarkJr said:
I would have to agree with Joebunga on this... Even when all is said and done we are talking about less than a dollar difference. I agree that the p/t should be as close as possible, but if a one dollar difference is too large then why is the other one ok? To find an exact match is going to be near impossible, so since it is going to be less than a 10% difference I don't see this as being a big deal.
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I don't think we were discussing if the P/T was good or not. I think the discussion was on obtaining value of the cigar, only using sources that carry both cigars for price reference or using multiple vendors that carry one cigar but not the other. Or at least that's what I though we were talking about.
 
Since this is a noobie pass, I feel safe asking if I'm already screwing this pass up by not bothering to research any of the sticks until the pass gets 2-3 people out from me? Is that not unreasonable? Is the point of the pass for everybody to research all the sticks all the time? Herp de derp?
 
I think the point of the pass is to learn how to do a pass. Although I'm with you on the waiting 'till it gets close thing, I have done my homework, and will continue to price P's and T's for the educational value. I think it will save time and mistakes if I pay attention all along the way.

Jmho

Steve
 
The way I see it is that if you don't do the research in the beginning, you won't be able to really contribute to the P/T discussions that will come up. The more information you have throughout the whole pass the more you will learn from it.

Will you do a lot of research on cigars that you have no chance of ever seeing (like the MFLB), yes, but that is why we are all in this pass to begin with.

Just the way I approached it though.
 
Kid Montana said:
Since this is a noobie pass, I feel safe asking if I'm already screwing this pass up by not bothering to research any of the sticks until the pass gets 2-3 people out from me? Is that not unreasonable? Is the point of the pass for everybody to research all the sticks all the time? Herp de derp?
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I wouldn't say you were necessarily screwing anything up. I do however think it would be beneficial for all of us newbs to be researching all of the sticks in the pass from the beginning. That way, even though the pass isn't close to you in line, you can add into the discussion on whether puts/takes are good ones or not. The old saying "practice makes perfect" holds true here. This way, once the pass gets to you, you'll be a pro (well, maybe damn good) at determining good P/T's

Just my .02 cents

_craig_
 
MrAnderson41 said:
I think we're all in agreement that the P/T is fine, especially if the first one is allowed with nearly a $2.00 over put.

I'm glad we're having this discussion though as I think we're all already learning something along the way.
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Before discussion goes any further...I'd like to point out that one P/T has no bearing on another. If I over-put a cigar by $5....and am $.50 under on another stick...that P/T can (and should) still be shot down.

Now, I'm not a stickler when we get within about a quarter....but you can't blanket trades. If I put in one $25 cigar for a $10 cigar...that doesn't mean I can under put my other trades by a net value of $15...doesn't work that way. Each P/T is graded on it's own merit...without the influence of other trades.

Just wanted to clear up that point.

The reason I asked for his pricing information....I noticed the sticks were not a "given" trade as everyone reaffirmed immediately....as you can see the sticks are EXTREMELY close...and we needed to have this discussion. For the record, I'm going to call the trade good.

Additionally....BSneed touched on the point...but there is a reason we try out best to compare prices from the same vendor. Having worked in the industry, I'll tell you that most shops have a percentage mark-up they use....which is basically in line with a wholesaler's MSRP. If a vendor gets a sick bulk deal on a particular cigar, and not the other....I can almost guarantee you at about 98% certainty...that that price savings isn't passed on to the consumer....prices from the vendor remain the same and they eat up the profit. Not to mention, many wholesalers have stipulations to their vendors that they cannot discount a cigar below a certain point. Therefore, using the same vendor to compare different cigars...you have the most accurate (while not flawless....it's still the best) way to determine MSRP.

This doesn't affect rarer smokes..and not all vendors carry the same cigars in all the sizes...however, that's why we search for different....reputable vendors. If you use cigar.com....you're arguments on MSRP wouldn't have merit....but if you use towerciagr, uptown, jackschwartz, etc...and other shops like holts, smoke inn, serios, etc. then between those (and all the other shops with large selections) you can probably find examples of shops with pricing on both your smokes.
 
To touch on the subject of pricing things out....it's not that difficult if you're willing to spend the little bit of time to price out the original list, and update only a few cigars along the way. It's beneficial for a few reasons...primarily education on many different situations or points of view that come up in a pass...but even more so when you are in a pass with very expensive and rare smokes being passed around...you have to know how to do research, price things out, and provide (not an argument) but discussion as to why you think the P/T is good if it is questioned, and know that you are referencing legitimate resources. Ultimately, a trade is always up to the pass host...but it prevents mistakes if you come to the table confident that you're trades are good.
 
BigJake6904 said:
Now, I'm not a stickler when we get within about a quarter....but you can't blanket trades. If I put in one $25 cigar for a $10 cigar...that doesn't mean I can under put my other trades by a net value of $15...doesn't work that way. Each P/T is graded on it's own merit...without the influence of other trades.
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It wasn't my intention to say that blanket trades were acceptable and I'm sorry for any confusion that may have caused. My point was that from the pricing references we had it looked like, if anything, the Illusione was probably more expensive than the MFLB and given that the first P/T was good then the second probably would be also.

Additionally....BSneed touched on the point...but there is a reason we try out best to compare prices from the same vendor. Having worked in the industry, I'll tell you that most shops have a percentage mark-up they use....which is basically in line with a wholesaler's MSRP. If a vendor gets a sick bulk deal on a particular cigar, and not the other....I can almost guarantee you at about 98% certainty...that that price savings isn't passed on to the consumer....prices from the vendor remain the same and they eat up the profit. Not to mention, many wholesalers have stipulations to their vendors that they cannot discount a cigar below a certain point. Therefore, using the same vendor to compare different cigars...you have the most accurate (while not flawless....it's still the best) way to determine MSRP.
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I was unaware of this and was under the impression that an averaged price was a better indicator of actual price (as evident from my posting and participation in this pass). I guess for the purpose of total clarity on the matter, am I to understand that if you find a single vendor that carries two cigars you are trying to compare then that trumps any averaged pricing you're able to come up with (unless of course you're able to average multiple vendors that carry both cigars)? The reason I'm belaboring this point is because I could see a situation in which someone finds a stick that a vendor is running a special on and uses that vendor as their comparison. Obviously I think common sense takes over at that point, however, as I've stated before, I figured that averaging your pricing, even if not all vendors carry both cigars, lead to a price less likely to be influenced by such factors.

I hope I'm not coming across as a pain in the ass or a dick or anything because I'm really trying to understand how this is supposed to work.
 
As a side note, because of this pass I've made the top 20 post whore list for the first time in a while. :)
 
MrAnderson41 said:
I hope I'm not coming across as a pain in the ass or a dick or anything because I'm really trying to understand how this is supposed to work.
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You're not...I assure you. Without the methodologies being questioned from time to time...we wouldn't be able to improve on them.


MrAnderson41 said:
I was unaware of this and was under the impression that an averaged price was a better indicator of actual price (as evident from my posting and participation in this pass). I guess for the purpose of total clarity on the matter, am I to understand that if you find a single vendor that carries two cigars you are trying to compare then that trumps any averaged pricing you're able to come up with (unless of course you're able to average multiple vendors that carry both cigars)? The reason I'm belaboring this point is because I could see a situation in which someone finds a stick that a vendor is running a special on and uses that vendor as their comparison. Obviously I think common sense takes over at that point, however, as I've stated before, I figured that averaging your pricing, even if not all vendors carry both cigars, lead to a price less likely to be influenced by such factors.
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To be honest...in future passes you participate...no one will know how you came up with your prices, whether it was an average of multiple vendors or comparison from one vendor. The truth of the matter is the host will either give it a stamp of approval or he won't. I'm just trying to teach a methodology that (for me) has always worked since I've used it.

The reason a vendor special won't fly...is that a pass host will shoot the trade down. Now that we don't have cigarcyclopedia's comparison shopper...it's a series of checks and balances. If a trade isn't obviously good...a host might ask you to make your case, ask for input, or just say no. A host won't always use the same sources a pass participant does...however, by finding prices on cigars from the same vendor...you have the best chance of a P/T being accepted due to similar mark-ups, etc amongst vendors with their own stock.

The other reason an average can be slated in one cigar's favor...is I can go to multiple online vendors, find the 5 highest prices for my put and go to many online vendors and find the 5 lowest for my take....by using different vendors...there is the possibility of "stacking the deck" in favor of the trade. Once again, through a checks and balances system...it will probably get shot down as a trade...but you see why that isn't the "accepted" practice for pricing.
 
BigJake6904 said:
The other reason an average can be slated in one cigar's favor...is I can go to multiple online vendors, find the 5 highest prices for my put and go to many online vendors and find the 5 lowest for my take....by using different vendors...there is the possibility of "stacking the deck" in favor of the trade. Once again, through a checks and balances system...it will probably get shot down as a trade...but you see why that isn't the "accepted" practice for pricing.
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I understand that both methodologies have their advantages and disadvantages.

At least for the purposes of this pass if, for example, two vendors have the same line but you have to go to two separate vendors for the third quote to average the price of a stick, how would you like us to handle this? Is it better to use even a single source than for comparison than it is to use any averaged price that includes mixed vendors between the cigars in question?

I'm not sure if that came across clearly or not but I'm finding it hard to put into words what I'm trying to ask.
 
I'm glad that this discussion has arisen. I feel that I have learned alot. I'm next...
 
BigJake6904 said:
The reason I asked for his pricing information....I noticed the sticks were not a "given" trade as everyone reaffirmed immediately....as you can see the sticks are EXTREMELY close...and we needed to have this discussion. For the record, I'm going to call the trade good.
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Jake, I suppose that was my bad in saying it looked obvious. I probably should have "shown my work" in the initial P/T thread to demonstrate my thoughts on it. Ah well, it looks like we had some good discussion and education anyway.

I'll get the pass moving again on Thrusday.

MarkJr said:
I'm glad that this discussion has arisen. I feel that I have learned alot. I'm next...
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Mark, you ready to catch it?
 
ilikefishes said:
MarkJr said:
I'm glad that this discussion has arisen. I feel that I have learned alot. I'm next...
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I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad I am not next.
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HAHA... I'm happy to take a little beating, there is no other way to learn.

Yeah I'm ready. I want to look in my humidor, I may post my p/t later this evening, in order to move the pass along quicker. I'm sure there will be some more debate on mine transaction as well.
 
MarkJr said:
ilikefishes said:
MarkJr said:
I'm glad that this discussion has arisen. I feel that I have learned alot. I'm next...
Click to expand...

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad I am not next.
Click to expand...
HAHA... I'm happy to take a little beating, there is no other way to learn.Yeah I'm ready. I want to look in my humidor, I may post my p/t later this evening, in order to move the pass along quicker. I'm sure there will be some more debate on mine transaction as well.
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All for knowledge, right?
 
This is exactly why it's called a Newbie Pass gents...more so for discussion and education than anything else.

We'll all be pretty wore out with passes before this thing is over though...lol
 
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