Getting your feet wet Pass II

[ironpeddler]

Package arrived on porch this morning and all cigars are present and accounted for. There is however, some damage to 93) Anejo # 50 chipped foot and 1/8 split in wrapper.

Other than that I recharge the pillows and replaced a pen. I can have this turned around within the hour if I get the all clear.

Thanks for letting me play

Brandon

I did not see the damage when I put it in but I will replace it with something if needed. I could send it to next in line so they can replace it and cremate the damaged smoke. I have a Anejo #46 I could use to replace it.

No, just avoid it at all costs and leave it there for me...I'll cremate it when it gets to NJ.....I'm professionally trained in these matters :whistling:

 

[Breedy]

I did not see the damage when I put it in but I will replace it with something if needed. I could send it to next in line so they can replace it and cremate the damaged smoke. I have a Anejo #46 I could use to replace it.

I am no expert, but it looks like it probably happened in transit. Box is holding up well, but you never know how the "careful" the postman is in handling. I stuffed a air-pillow in a gap in the box to hopefully prevent the "internals" from having to much lateral movement. Damage wasn't that bad, I just saw some loose tabacco flakes in the baggie I gave it a closer look. I thought I had one to swap for it, but I must of buried it or torched because I couldn't find it. :angry:

Brandon

 

[ironpeddler]

OK...the Prize Package for the Contest Winner is in the mail....DC# 0307 3330 0000 0224 3015

Savannah, your doggy treats are carefully packaged and on their way, I hope you like them...they're all Natural, peanut butter and molasses cookies. Let me know if you like them, if so I'll send you a few boxes. :thumbs:

Enjoy

IP

PS: almost forgot, in the same box are some cigars for that cheatin' bastage owner of yours....make sure he gets them. :whistling: :laugh:

 

[punk_lawyer]

OK, so here is my suggestion of puts / takes:

1) T: #93 AF Anejo #50M ($8.00) - P: #101 WOAM ($7.35)
2) T: #88 CAO Sopranos Associate ($8.66) - P: #102 My Father #2 ($10.17)
3) T: #34 LFD Double Ligero Maduro Chisel ($6.82) - P: #103 Bucanero Salsa ($7.16)
4) T: #91 AF Anejo #48M ($8.75) - P: #104 Fuente Fuente Opus X Petit Lancero ($10.00)
5) T: #99 Hemingway Classic Maduro ($7.25) - P: #105 Mi Barrio ($10.87)
6) T: #86 La Aurora Preferidos Gold Tubo ($11.61) - P: 106 Fuente Fuente Opus X Super Belicoso ($12.00)

The woam for the Anejo #50 may be a bit light. Both carry the rarity tag. Also, the Anejo was put in order take a woam.

Let the comments begin!!!

 

[Jonesy]

Maintenance has been done to the first post and everything has been updated. I apologize to you last couple of guys that had to hunt out other peoples P/T's so you could do yours. I didn't realize I had fallen behind like that. :blush:

OK, so here is my suggestion of puts / takes:

1) T: #93 AF Anejo #50M ($8.00) - P: #101 WOAM ($7.35)
2) T: #88 CAO Sopranos Associate ($8.66) - P: #102 My Father #2 ($10.17)
3) T: #34 LFD Double Ligero Maduro Chisel ($6.82) - P: #103 Bucanero Salsa ($7.16)
4) T: #91 AF Anejo #48M ($8.75) - P: #104 Fuente Fuente Opus X Petit Lancero ($10.00)
5) T: #99 Hemingway Classic Maduro ($7.25) - P: #105 Mi Barrio ($10.87)
6) T: #86 La Aurora Preferidos Gold Tubo ($11.61) - P: 106 Fuente Fuente Opus X Super Belicoso ($12.00)

The woam for the Anejo #50 may be a bit light. Both carry the rarity tag. Also, the Anejo was put in order take a woam.

Let the comments begin!!!

Everything looks good except for the last trade, but I'm going to let it go if you still want the cigar. It's been stated that the Anejo 50 (#93) had a slight bit of foot damage so this one is solely up to you ( this is why I'm open to accepting it, if it weren't for that, it would be turned down). As far as a WOAM being taken with an Anejo 50 does not mean that you can reverse the trade. You still have a value difference between the two once it is reversed.

With that being said, (to all in general, not directed at you Stu) just because a cigar #1 is taken with cigar #2, it does not mean you can take cigar #2 with cigar #1. As a matter of fact, I would say in ~95% of the cases it won't happen because you need to hit value or go over in value to make a trade happen....as this wouldn't happen in this situation.

 

[Jonesy]

My apologies, I meant the first trade...not the last.

 

[grateful1]

With that being said, (to all in general, not directed at you Stu) just because a cigar #1 is taken with cigar #2, it does not mean you can take cigar #2 with cigar #1. As a matter of fact, I would say in ~95% of the cases it won't happen because you need to hit value or go over in value to make a trade happen....as this wouldn't happen in this situation.

:thumbs:

Leaving a pass as you found it is good...leaving one better than you found it...well, that's up to you as a pass participant to decide what it is!

 

[punk_lawyer]

With that being said, (to all in general, not directed at you Stu) just because a cigar #1 is taken with cigar #2, it does not mean you can take cigar #2 with cigar #1. As a matter of fact, I would say in ~95% of the cases it won't happen because you need to hit value or go over in value to make a trade happen....as this wouldn't happen in this situation.

:thumbs:

Leaving a pass as you found it is good...leaving one better than you found it...well, that's up to you as a pass participant to decide what it is!

This was all the subject of a philosophical discussion the other night in the banished chat room. I raised the issue and it seemed that there were opinions on both sides. I think it is good to have a definitive answer and certainly it is an issue worth raising in a 'get your feet wet' pass. I originally commented on the condition of the Anejo but edited to remove that comment as it seemed pretty irrelevant.

How about this:

1) T: #93 AF Anejo #50M ($8.00) - P: #101 Fuente Fuente Opus X Power Ranger ($9.25)

If any of the folks down the line in the pass want to see a woam make it back into the list then pm me with a suggestion and I will try to put it in there with an additional put / take.

Stu

 

[vinnyvega]

OK, so here is my suggestion of puts / takes:

1) T: #93 AF Anejo #50M ($8.00) - P: #101 WOAM ($7.35)
2) T: #88 CAO Sopranos Associate ($8.66) - P: #102 My Father #2 ($10.17)
3) T: #34 LFD Double Ligero Maduro Chisel ($6.82) - P: #103 Bucanero Salsa ($7.16)
4) T: #91 AF Anejo #48M ($8.75) - P: #104 Fuente Fuente Opus X Petit Lancero ($10.00)
5) T: #99 Hemingway Classic Maduro ($7.25) - P: #105 Mi Barrio ($10.87)
6) T: #86 La Aurora Preferidos Gold Tubo ($11.61) - P: 106 Fuente Fuente Opus X Super Belicoso ($12.00)

The woam for the Anejo #50 may be a bit light. Both carry the rarity tag. Also, the Anejo was put in order take a woam.

Let the comments begin!!!

WOW! Regardless if #1 goes through not or, those a some pretty F'NG nice puts there. I have always wanted to try a Bucanero.

 

[bully1875]

Ditto, P/T's are very nice.

 

[IBQTEE1]

Damn, some of y'all must think I'm an overweight canvas or something! :laugh:

Pictures in the mail Kristin. :whistling:

I don't think that you are overweight. I am thinking that you are tall. I am waiting with bated breath for the pics!! :love:

 

[Jonesy]

Damn, some of y'all must think I'm an overweight canvas or something! :laugh:

Pictures in the mail Kristin. :whistling:

I don't think that you are overweight. I am thinking that you are tall. I am waiting with bated breath for the pics!! :love:

Well, you hit my weight dead on with your guess. I'm 6'1 so I'm not overly tall. Let me know when they get to you.

 

[grateful1]

How about this:

1) T: #93 AF Anejo #50M ($8.00) - P: #101 Fuente Fuente Opus X Power Ranger ($9.25)

If any of the folks down the line in the pass want to see a woam make it back into the list then pm me with a suggestion and I will try to put it in there with an additional put / take.

Stu

Stu...he already approved it - as the foot was questionable.

(and yea, I interjected on page 'what ever this is' because it was brought up in chat :tumbs: )

 

[Pompous Pugs]

With that being said, (to all in general, not directed at you Stu) just because a cigar #1 is taken with cigar #2, it does not mean you can take cigar #2 with cigar #1. As a matter of fact, I would say in ~95% of the cases it won't happen because you need to hit value or go over in value to make a trade happen....as this wouldn't happen in this situation.

Jonesy thanks for bringing this to the message board, as I had pmed him this question earlier in the week.

I am not trying to argue, but better understand this principle, and agree that this is your pass so you set the rules and we obey. I was wondering, since this is a newbie pass, if we could dig a little deeper into this philosophy with regards to all passes (not just this one). As it will help all of us going forward and in future passes.

It seems as though this has to do with the principle of "leaving a pass better off than you found it" which is clearly in conflict with "equal puts for equal takes"--and we have been down that rabbit trail. But the denial of retrades is interesting to me.
Somewhere in here, I thought we had said the leaving the pass better was not in reference to value but in reference to condition (box, pen, water pillow, etc.). And while it would make sense for the value to increase as the p/t are of equal or "slightly" greater value, wouldn't p/ts that are not reversible diminish some sort of overarching objectivity to cigarpasses.

It was my understanding that the central principle was whether putting or taking try to stay within the confines of price and rarity. To which we utilize the price-guide to be the most objective.

Therefore allowing cigar 1 not to be re-traded for cigar 2 eliminates our past attempts at objectivity and lends to each pass being subject to the host (which I do not mean to sound as a negative, just curious).

Since one of the main resources we tell people is to research their p/ts by searching previous passes, wouldn't it render other pass experiences moot to the one you are participating in at the time?
If cigar A->B->A is not a possibility 95% of the time.

In general, how are past p/ts viewed, as references for future transactions or stand alone events?


edited for more parenthetical commentary by me.

 

[punk_lawyer]

How about this:

1) T: #93 AF Anejo #50M ($8.00) - P: #101 Fuente Fuente Opus X Power Ranger ($9.25)

If any of the folks down the line in the pass want to see a woam make it back into the list then pm me with a suggestion and I will try to put it in there with an additional put / take.

Stu

Stu...he already approved it - as the foot was questionable.

(and yea, I interjected on page 'what ever this is' because it was brought up in chat :tumbs: )

I know but he left it up to me and I do not want to lean on the very slight damage that the anejo has suffered.

 

[The Green Monkey]

Good questions, PP. I too was having trouble reconciling the notion of 'equal puts for equal takes' if there is no transitive property involved anywhere. I think that some of the concerns we visited during the Casa Fuente discussions early on could be realized if there's a slow but dramatic increase in the overall cost and rarity of sticks represented in the pass.

Vinnyvega and Ironpeddler are liable to face a far different pass than Desert Rat and Beyond the Band did. Without any sort of negative leeway allowed that's unavoidable of course (at least to a small degree), but it's certain to amplify if there isn't any sort of retroactive, transferable transitory tradability allowed.

 

[punk_lawyer]

And while it would make sense for the value to increase as the p/t are of equal or "slightly" greater value, wouldn't p/ts that are not reversible diminish some sort of overarching objectivity to cigarpasses.

This seems to repeat the line that was brought up in the outcast chatroom. As Pugs is last in line, I can see his concern because it would appear that the making of passes is progressively harder for those who are later in the show.

I agree with putting sticks of equal or greater value but that does appear to mean that folks with deeper humidor stock will do better at the end of the pass than those with smaller humidor stock. By way of comparison, DesertRat would have a far easier time making choices than Pompous Pugs.

On the other hand, I also agree that you really cannot rely on the prior puts and takes. That can lead to a slippery slope indeed. If a Sancho Panza is taken for a Partagas that is taken for an Illusione that is taken for an Ashton VSG that is taken for an Opus then putting a Sancho Panza for the Opus is clearly out of the question. The lineage is the same but the value is not. If someone proposed taking the Opus and replacing it with the same prior VSG then there is a bit more of a question...that is the debate here: value for value or not? A step down in value is questionable but if the two cigars are close to value then should it be allowed?

I believe that Pompous Pugs has properly framed the debate. I can easily see both sides of this case and, since I am a lawyer, whichever side pays me the most will have me arguing on their side. :whistling:

 

[The Green Monkey]

On the other hand, I also agree that you really cannot rely on the prior puts and takes. That can lead to a slippery slope indeed. If a Sancho Panza is taken for a Partagas that is taken for an Illusione that is taken for an Ashton VSG that is taken for an Opus then putting a Sancho Panza for the Opus is clearly out of the question. The lineage is the same but the value is not. If someone proposed taking the Opus and replacing it with the same prior VSG then there is a bit more of a question...that is the debate here: value for value or not? A step down in value is questionable but if the two cigars are close to value then should it be allowed?

I'd think that one degree of Kevin Bacon would be a lot easier to digest (and easier to monitor) than a multi-level slippery slope.

 

[Jonesy]

And while it would make sense for the value to increase as the p/t are of equal or "slightly" greater value, wouldn't p/ts that are not reversible diminish some sort of overarching objectivity to cigarpasses.

This seems to repeat the line that was brought up in the outcast chatroom. As Pugs is last in line, I can see his concern because it would appear that the making of passes is progressively harder for those who are later in the show.

I agree with putting sticks of equal or greater value but that does appear to mean that folks with deeper humidor stock will do better at the end of the pass than those with smaller humidor stock. By way of comparison, DesertRat would have a far easier time making choices than Pompous Pugs.

On the other hand, I also agree that you really cannot rely on the prior puts and takes. That can lead to a slippery slope indeed. If a Sancho Panza is taken for a Partagas that is taken for an Illusione that is taken for an Ashton VSG that is taken for an Opus then putting a Sancho Panza for the Opus is clearly out of the question. The lineage is the same but the value is not. If someone proposed taking the Opus and replacing it with the same prior VSG then there is a bit more of a question...that is the debate here: value for value or not? A step down in value is questionable but if the two cigars are close to value then should it be allowed?

I believe that Pompous Pugs has properly framed the debate. I can easily see both sides of this case and, since I am a lawyer, whichever side pays me the most will have me arguing on their side. :whistling:

I will answer Stu's question first and then move on later today to break down Pug's question and answer it in detail.

- Unless you put a "like" cigar in value, it cannot be taken with a different cigar with a different value unless it is of equal or greater value. I understand that it's hard to take a cigar that's worth $8.27 with another cigar that's in your humi that's worth $8.30. At this point , you decide what is a reasonable trade without jumping way over value to make this trade. At this point, if you don't have anything comparable, then maybe you need to look at a different cigar that may match up more evenly with what you have on hand. As far as this being subjective to this pass, I can safely say that 98 out of 100 pass hosts will turn down a trade of a $10.00 take with a $9.35 put. I'm not saying this as a pass host, but as a BoTL....I wouldn't think of offering a trade like that in the first place because it would seem as if I'm trying to "upgrade" my cigars at the pass hosts' expense and I think that is just about what anyone that has ever been in multiple passes will also say.

As far as DesertRat's P/T's being much simpler than the last person in line, ABSOLUTELY! But that's going to happen in any pass you ever join....I promise you that. Just from a money stand point, it's sooo hard to make equal value trades, that a pass will go up in value over the course of it being out. That should never be the premise behind a pass, but it's a statistical fact. Even if you do have a cigar that's dead on value wise for a certain cigar in the pass, does that mean that you really want to make that trade? Most people eye certain cigars and then start pondering their puts, rarely is it "like value" trades just because they match up....then you're getting stuff you may not even want.
Now, if this confused you, wait until I get around to answering Pugs question! :laugh:

 

[Jonesy]

Jonesy thanks for bringing this to the message board, as I had pmed him this question earlier in the week.

I am not trying to argue, but better understand this principle, and agree that this is your pass so you set the rules and we obey. I was wondering, since this is a newbie pass, if we could dig a little deeper into this philosophy with regards to all passes (not just this one). As it will help all of us going forward and in future passes.

It seems as though this has to do with the principle of "leaving a pass better off than you found it" which is clearly in conflict with "equal puts for equal takes"--and we have been down that rabbit trail. But the denial of retrades is interesting to me.

See Stu's answer above. Denial of retrades is only done when a cigar that is worth $13.50 has been replaced with a cigar worth $15 (example only). It doesn't matter that the cigar being used is the same that the cigar that you want, was traded for. You WILL get turned down 100 out of 100 times on this trade. If the cigars are like in value, then absolutely they can be trade for each other. There are exceptions to the rule as always though. With this being a learning pass, I would like you to stay as close to $ to$ as possible as this gets you ready for your next pass. Because I can tell you now, if you get into another pass and you try making a $15/$13.50 trade, it will get shot down as soon as it's posted.

Somewhere in here, I thought we had said the leaving the pass better was not in reference to value but in reference to condition (box, pen, water pillow, etc.). And while it would make sense for the value to increase as the p/t are of equal or "slightly" greater value, wouldn't p/ts that are not reversible diminish some sort of overarching objectivity to cigarpasses.

Absolutely correct. That's exactly what "Leaving the pass better than you found it" means to means. In no way do I expect it to mean "add cigars only of greater value". To an extent though, it has to increase in value. See my answer to Stu again.

It was my understanding that the central principle was whether putting or taking try to stay within the confines of price and rarity. To which we utilize the price-guide to be the most objective.

Therefore allowing cigar 1 not to be re-traded for cigar 2 eliminates our past attempts at objectivity and lends to each pass being subject to the host (which I do not mean to sound as a negative, just curious).

Again, you're correct....on the first sentence. The only time I will EVER allow a put to be worth less than a take is if it's relatively close to the same price i.e ~$.25. This is not subjectivity either, It's of my opinion that no pass host will allow a trade with much more of a negative factor than that. Yes, every pass is subjective to the host. I can make my own rules, approve all trades without the approval of ANYONE else, but at the same time, this is a newbie pass so there are a lot more people watching this than a pass full of Vets. They want to see how each of you act, respond to mild criticism, deal with P/T's etc, and make sure that I don't try to take advantage of you as a pass host.

Since one of the main resources we tell people is to research their p/ts by searching previous passes, wouldn't it render other pass experiences moot to the one you are participating in at the time?
If cigar A->B->A is not a possibility 95% of the time.

Not necessarily because you won't find that particular example in 99% of passes. You can reference other passes to see what type of trades have been approved or denied to factor into your proposed P/T's

In general, how are past p/ts viewed, as references for future transactions or stand alone events?

Each set of P/T's are unique to the situation at the time. Take DesertRat's P/T's for example.


Hope this was of some help because my head hurts now. :laugh: