CP’s Cigars 201-2 Pass

[LarryH]

Greg am I good to go on the updated takes and puts? I'll be continuing to scrub the concrete floor in my house tomorrow morning but I have to have the machine back by about 1:00PM so I should be able to drop the Pass off on my way. A PM has been sent to Derek to verify that he is ready.

 

[Kingantz]

Greg am I good to go on the updated takes and puts? I'll be continuing to scrub the concrete floor in my house tomorrow morning but I have to have the machine back by about 1:00PM so I should be able to drop the Pass off on my way. A PM has been sent to Derek to verify that he is ready.

You're good to go Larry!

 

[LarryH]

I've updated my Put numbers. For some reason I had them one off. I also put a fiver of JLP Cremas in the box. It's a nice inexpensive little CC. If you haven't tried one of these and would like to then take one. When they're gone they're gone, and If any make it home they're all yours Greg. I didn't get a new box but I'm sure this one will make at least one more trip. Derek be on the look out for a DC number.

T - #48 Cohiba Siglo V $14.9 (CC shopper $15.01)
P - #57Saint Luis Rey Pacificos RE Asia MOS JUL 09 $14.00 (what I paid)

T - #55 Ashton VSG Corona Gorda ($8.05)
P - #58 Oliva Serie V Maduro Torpedo 2008 (From the Pass $8) (what I paid, $8.80)

T - #50 08 RASS - $5.80 (CC Shopper box of 50, $6.52 )
P - #59 HdM Petit Robusto RBT ABR 08 $5.44 (what I paid) (Shopper $6.05)

 

[jnknzz]

Alright guys! Here are my proposed P/T's (so far...)


T: #18 - Anejo 55 '08 ($10.75 - moki)
P: #60 - Opus #4 '08 ($10.50 - what I paid)

T: #40 - LGC MdO #4 '02 ($5.10 - pg. 8 - Vin's p/t)
P: #61 - VR Famoso '08 ($5.32 - what I paid)

T: #41 - LGC Glorioso RE ($13.45 - pg. 8 - Vin's p/t)
P: #62 - Sir Winnie '00 ($13.12 - average online price)

T: #59 - HdM Petit Robusto '08 ($5.44 - what Larry paid)
P: #63 - JL #2 '09 ($5.60 - what I paid)


Not sure if what I paid is close to average online prices...CC's cuban shopper is still down.

Let me know what you guys think! :thumbs:

 

[Nashkicker]

Alright guys! Here are my proposed P/T's (so far...)


T: #18 - Anejo 55 '08 ($10.75 - moki)
P: #60 - Opus #4 '08 ($10.50 - what I paid)

T: #40 - LGC MdO #4 '02 ($5.10 - pg. 8 - Vin's p/t)
P: #61 - VR Famoso '08 ($5.32 - what I paid)

T: #41 - LGC Glorioso RE ($13.45 - pg. 8 - Vin's p/t)
P: #62 - Sir Winnie '00 ($13.12 - average online price)

T: #59 - HdM Petit Robusto '08 ($5.44 - what Larry paid)
P: #63 - JL #2 '09 ($5.60 - what I paid)


Not sure if what I paid is close to average online prices...CC's cuban shopper is still down.

Let me know what you guys think! :thumbs:

Not sur ewhy you would use mokis price for the Anejo but your price on the Opus when msrp was just one click away? That trade feels off to me.

I don't know enough about cc to comment on the other p/t's.

 

[Kingantz]

There's been a lot of debate determining value for takes/puts in a pass, whether to use what was actually paid for a cigar vs. today's average price. But, isn't using what the cigar is worth how it's done in pretty much all passes? Think about it. How does one determine the pricing on the sticks the host puts in the pass? Does the host list out what he/she paid for each one? The answer to that is no, so again how does the first passer know what value to put on a cigar he/she wishes to take? In higher end passes, players may be able to just look at a cigar and know about what it's worth, and then go looking for something around that price range to put for it and be good to go. But, for newbs and newbie passes, it's probably best to go find out what the value is, which is where the average pricing rule comes in. Again, what was actually paid for a cigar is not to be used in this pass, which I don't believe is really used in any other passes.

One example that really stood out to me was Jim's (Stepthirteen) take/puts in Phil's pass. One of Jim's trades was for a DCM Stanford's 90th and putting in a Tat Black 07 Xmas release. The question was, what was the Tat Black worth vs. the DCM. Jim stated he paid $25 ea. for the Tats and had picked up some of the DCM for $18 a stick a few months earlier; however it was determined that the Tats actually went for $12 and the DCM around $25. IF what Jim paid for the Tat was used, the trade would've been right on, yet the trade was pulled because it's not what was paid, but what it was actually worth at release. Of course, there's the rarity value that has to be considered as well, which is another subject.

Admittedly I've been a bit neglectful so far with ensuring everyone is using what cigars are worth (average) vs. what was paid, so for those that have listed prices paid we'll go ahead and let stand, but for those cigars without pricing listed we are going to go with the average. Of course, there are going to be some cigars where it will be difficult to get an average price, not to mention rarity value coming into play. But, for cigars that are readily available and pricing can be found, do the average.

 

[massphatness]

Couldn't agree more with what you're saying, Greg. I know this discussion came up early on in the pass, and there was a push to use the price paid valuation method. It seemed off to me then, and it seems off to me now. I would rather see the pass participants chime in on a current value for the puts & takes as you just posted.

 

[jayro75]

Current value is definitely the most relevant and is easily determined by searching the trading forums and sites such as Wades to see what things are being sold for on the private market.. It also eliminate currency fluctuations for the CC market which have been quite extreme over the last year or so. IMO this is the only way to determine current market value of any stick especially with some of the more HTF sticks such as the Tat Black in your example Greg. Of course this
method of determination isn't infallible just look at the price people are putting on the "Face".

 

[jnknzz]

It didn't even occur to me to check on the Opus MSRP. I thought I had that Opus chart memorized and "just knew" I had paid MSRP. :blush:

T: #18 - Anejo 55 '08 ($10.75 - MSRP)
P: #60 - Opus #PL '09 ($11 - MSRP)

As for the CC's, I'm still new to Wade's and it's still difficult to determine exactly what goes for market value and what's high/low. I checked my "what I paid" prices against the Advertisers here (since Comp.Shop. is still down), and I'm still lower than their prices. Usually I'm an "on sale" shopper anyway. So, I just used what I paid for them since that was the easiest exact number to come up with.

Is there a better resource to use to find those market values? Maybe the more experienced here could help with that... ???

 

[grateful1]

Couldn't agree more with what you're saying, Greg. I know this discussion came up early on in the pass, and there was a push to use the price paid valuation method. It seemed off to me then, and it seems off to me now. I would rather see the pass participants chime in on a current value for the puts & takes as you just posted.

CP, for the most part, starts with MSRP.

If you go off the B/S/T forums...that's what we work with. Yes, we do allow for some state taxes and such.

Then we move onto rarity and current market value. As for 'what was paid'....I would say NO.

There are plenty of folks who bought Opus for $25 a stick, not knowing they can be had for less.

As for places with HIGH tax rates...well, a lot of online guys buy, well, online.

Market value should really only come into play on really old/crusty sticks.

JMHO

Current value is definitely the most relevant and is easily determined by searching the trading forums and sites such as Wades to see what things are being sold for on the private market.. It also eliminate currency fluctuations for the CC market which have been quite extreme over the last year or so. IMO this is the only way to determine current market value of any stick especially with some of the more HTF sticks such as the Tat Black in your example Greg. Of course this
method of determination isn't infallible just look at the price people are putting on the "Face".

This would be true, but we don't go by market value in the B/S/T(other than real old/crusty sticks) ...so why do it here?

 

[jayro75]

Couldn't agree more with what you're saying, Greg. I know this discussion came up early on in the pass, and there was a push to use the price paid valuation method. It seemed off to me then, and it seems off to me now. I would rather see the pass participants chime in on a current value for the puts & takes as you just posted.

CP, for the most part, starts with MSRP.

If you go off the B/S/T forums...that's what we work with. Yes, we do allow for some state taxes and such.

Then we move onto rarity and current market value. As for 'what was paid'....I would say NO.

There are plenty of folks who bought Opus for $25 a stick, not knowing they can be had for less.

As for places with HIGH tax rates...well, a lot of online guys buy, well, online.

Market value should really only come into play on really old/crusty sticks.

JMHO

Current value is definitely the most relevant and is easily determined by searching the trading forums and sites such as Wades to see what things are being sold for on the private market.. It also eliminate currency fluctuations for the CC market which have been quite extreme over the last year or so. IMO this is the only way to determine current market value of any stick especially with some of the more HTF sticks such as the Tat Black in your example Greg. Of course this
method of determination isn't infallible just look at the price people are putting on the "Face".

This would be true, but we don't go by market value in the B/S/T(other than real old/crusty sticks) ...so why do it here?

In most cases especially with NC's market value and MSRP are the same thing. With CC's it's quite different because of the currency fluctuations and different pricing structures in different countries which effect MSRP greatly. Market value is most relevant when dealing with harder to find sticks and rarities where all we have to go by is the current market value.

 

[grateful1]

No. MSRP is MSRP...even on Cuban cigars. Currency changes only effect...currency.

If HSA sets a price...that's what it is. If the country that distributes it changed that price...or the price if different due to currency exchange...well, that's not MSRP.

The other probelm is this...I have a stick I paid $25 for....not it's worth $40...do you trade it for a $40 stick...or a $25 one?

Think before you answer that!

BTW - this has all been discussed before.




edit- btw...it's the host call as to how pricing is to be determined!

 

[jnknzz]

Where does one find MSRP from HSA?

 

[jayro75]

No. MSRP is MSRP...even on Cuban cigars. Currency changes only effect...currency.

If HSA sets a price...that's what it is. If the country that distributes it changed that price...or the price if different due to currency exchange...well, that's not MSRP.

The other probelm is this...I have a stick I paid $25 for....not it's worth $40...do you trade it for a $40 stick...or a $25 one?

Think before you answer that!

BTW - this has all been discussed before.




edit- btw...it's the host call as to how pricing is to be determined!

Yes and no on the currency issue. Yes, HSA sets a price and that's MSRP. If MSRP is set in Euros and we are all using dollars to purchase than the MSRP for this market fluctuates with the currency. For example MSRP on the RA Belicoso RE Germany is 262.50 Euro which with a current exchange rate of $1.38equals $362.25. Now if you were to have purchased these at points over the summer when the exchange rate dipped as low as $1.19 the MSRP in this market would have been $312.38. So depending on market and currency MSRP is set in it does fluctuate with the currency exchange rate.

The worth of your $25 stick is a whole different and as complicated issue. If there is someone willing to buy it from you for $40 than yes it is worth $40 to that person, but maybe someone else is only willing to pay $20 for it so that is what it's worth to them. I know that doesn't exactly answer the question but it is just one example of how complicated that example is.

Yes Greg ultimately decides how pricing is to be determined.

 

[grateful1]

I'm glad we now see the complex nature of this and why MSRP is used.

This relates to my question...again, take a look at it. It's not about a sale...but a trade!

 

[jayro75]

I'm glad we now see the complex nature of this and why MSRP is used.

This relates to my question...again, take a look at it. It's not about a sale...but a trade!

How do you determine MSRP on CC's in USD if it is set in Euros or GBP?

I saw the question and know exactly what it's about. My answer stands as one example of how difficult it is to determine worth for the trade. Others being rarity, age etc..

 

[grateful1]

MSRP is the price that it comes out of HSA. Determining it is tough...as they don't have it readily available...unless you get a list from the distributor.
Prices are set by HSA...but then again, they can change them...look at the Por Larranga RE (iirc)...they were around $360 then dropped.

As for the question....it's not about 'worth'.

Can anyone in the class tell us what it is about?

BTW - Antz is typing up s storm!

LMAO

 

[jayro75]

MSRP is the price that it comes out of HSA. Determining it is tough...as they don't have it readily available...unless you get a list from the distributor.
Prices are set by HSA...but then again, they can change them...look at the Por Larranga RE (iirc)...they were around $360 then dropped.

As for the question....it's not about 'worth'.

Can anyone in the class tell us what it is about?

BTW - Antz is typing up s storm!

LMAO

That's all well and good if HSA sets MSRP in USD. If not then MSRP fluctuates depending on the market. Yes HSA does change MSRP and the PL RE is a perfect example of that.

 

[Kingantz]

MSRP is the price that it comes out of HSA. Determining it is tough...as they don't have it readily available...unless you get a list from the distributor.
Prices are set by HSA...but then again, they can change them...look at the Por Larranga RE (iirc)...they were around $360 then dropped.

As for the question....it's not about 'worth'.

Can anyone in the class tell us what it is about?

BTW - Antz is typing up s storm!

LMAO

LMFAO!! :laugh:

Yep! I was, but working and playing at the same time get's tedious! The question to me delves into the realm of high-end sticks where age and availability become factors, rarity starts playing a big part in value. What is it that's driving the price up $15 since purchase and is there information to substantiate the claim? Again, in high-end passes most folks already know such information.

Who in their right mind would trade a $40 stick for $25 stick anyway? :whistling:

 

[jnknzz]

Another one I've come across that has me stumped...

Cabaiguan Guapo MSRP is listed at $11. Average online price via Comparison Shopper is $8.14. At which price do I trade? The latter, correct?


OP:

**To determine pricing; find the cigar in the list, add all store's prices in the row, divide the total by the number of stores, divide by number of sticks on sale (use full box if available). This should give you the best price for each stick. Please note we will go by the average of what a cigar is going for at the time of the T/P, not what it was paid for at time of purchase.

So, this is saying that by doing a current price comp. with a handfull of vendors, I can find the going value of a cigar (as the market generally determines the 'worth' of anything). If what I paid for a cigar is less than the going value, I'm still not going to trade it at the "higher" going rate. I feel comfortable trading it at what I paid (lower than current market value).

^^^ CC and NC alike...