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Barry Bonds
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I am conflicted on this. Yes, Barry is and always was a ahole and just a very unlikable guy, but he was a great player before all his magical body change.
Where everyone in the history of the game started losing skills and performance in there late 30's or early 40's, Barry's actually GREATLY improved. To go from a 300 average and 40 hr's to 350 avg and 73 hr's at age 38, is just not normal. To be twice as good at 38-43 then when you were 25 or 30? No, he had a magic potion that helped him do that.
Hank Aaron is still the king in my book. One thing nobody has mentioned, but from 1954 till 1972 (I think it was 72, maybe it was earlier), the pitcher's mound was higher than it is today and this gave the pitchers a huge advantage that today's pitcher's don't have. One year Bob Gibson had a 1.04 era; and most years there were only 3 or 4 who hit more than 40 hr's. In 1971 the American League leader hit 32 hr's.
Where everyone in the history of the game started losing skills and performance in there late 30's or early 40's, Barry's actually GREATLY improved. To go from a 300 average and 40 hr's to 350 avg and 73 hr's at age 38, is just not normal. To be twice as good at 38-43 then when you were 25 or 30? No, he had a magic potion that helped him do that.
Hank Aaron is still the king in my book. One thing nobody has mentioned, but from 1954 till 1972 (I think it was 72, maybe it was earlier), the pitcher's mound was higher than it is today and this gave the pitchers a huge advantage that today's pitcher's don't have. One year Bob Gibson had a 1.04 era; and most years there were only 3 or 4 who hit more than 40 hr's. In 1971 the American League leader hit 32 hr's.
Now that you have gotten the 'wow' out of the way, would you care to elaborate? Why does it matter?
Do you also care about the fact that Hammerin' Hank was hopped up on amphetamines during his career? Do you also dispute his homerun record? Amphetamines were an illegal drug (though, like steroids, not banned by baseball at the time) and they are certainly performance enhancing.
Willie Mays took amphetamines. Is he any less great?
LilBastage
Meat is murder! Tasty, tasty murder.
They can't help his hand-eye coordination, but the drugs can certainly help his workout intensity and recovery time.
Barry Bonds endorsed ZMA in several ads in the late 90's or early 00's and has admitted to taking it. ZMA was made by BALCO and later discovered to be modified forms of several illegal substances. They were modified to be undetectable. He also admitted to using the "cream and the clear". He says he didn't know that they were also modified versions of illegal substances.
I find it hard to believe that someone who depends on their body and conditioning to earn $17 million/year would ingest ANYTHING without knowing exactly what it was. I also find it odd that he was pretty darn healthy until MLB suddenly decided to start more rigorous testing. It wasn't until then that the nagging injuries associated with players 5-7 years younger than Bonds began to afflict him.
Innocent until proven guilty is just fine for a court of law. The court of public (and my) opinion is a little less stringent. In my eyes, there's plenty of evidence to say he cheated. My opinion may very well be tainted by the fact that he is unarguably one of the biggest assholes to play the game since Ty Cobb and a spoiled brat, but it is still my opinion.
It's really a shame, too. Barry Bonds was blessed with talent unseen before he came along. He was a first ballot HOF selection before any of this nonsense. His personality aside, he was an awesome ball player. Now, I just can't stand to look at him...
Barry Bonds endorsed ZMA in several ads in the late 90's or early 00's and has admitted to taking it. ZMA was made by BALCO and later discovered to be modified forms of several illegal substances. They were modified to be undetectable. He also admitted to using the "cream and the clear". He says he didn't know that they were also modified versions of illegal substances.
I find it hard to believe that someone who depends on their body and conditioning to earn $17 million/year would ingest ANYTHING without knowing exactly what it was. I also find it odd that he was pretty darn healthy until MLB suddenly decided to start more rigorous testing. It wasn't until then that the nagging injuries associated with players 5-7 years younger than Bonds began to afflict him.
Innocent until proven guilty is just fine for a court of law. The court of public (and my) opinion is a little less stringent. In my eyes, there's plenty of evidence to say he cheated. My opinion may very well be tainted by the fact that he is unarguably one of the biggest assholes to play the game since Ty Cobb and a spoiled brat, but it is still my opinion.
It's really a shame, too. Barry Bonds was blessed with talent unseen before he came along. He was a first ballot HOF selection before any of this nonsense. His personality aside, he was an awesome ball player. Now, I just can't stand to look at him...
Mrepp
To boldly troll where no Troll has trolled before
Well for multiple reason’s man. I mean the world of sports is degenerating as it is. Not only do kids look up to these people but aspiring athletes do to and its disappointing to think that one has to be hopped up on illegal substances. I mean the kinda message your sending there is “I don’t care what the hell you do to yourself as long as you win and I’m entertained”
Yeah man, to be honest as an aspiring athlete I find that truly disappointing.
Eshaw99
Just livin' the dream
Rob_k
If it ain't Scottish...it's crap!
Considering Hank did it substance free really says something about what a great athelete he and the other baseball legends really were. Some argue that the game is now more exciting due to more homers and all that, I for one think it is not right there were "enhancements" used by Bonds, but it does make me appreciate guys like AAron, Ruth, Yaz, Maris and the other old school players and their abilities.
Rob
Rob
Gator
Well-Known Member
There's alot more than just his relationship w/ the media, he's a ass, been one along time, it's pretty well documented.
Take that back. D*ckhead seems to be more appropriate.
Thank god we don't judge all athletes by their attitudes. Just Barry.
We'd have a lot less people in the Hall of Fame.
Rodrigo de Jerez
I get to give myself a title?
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-Mark
-Mark
This is perhaps the post that comes closest to capturing my thoughts on this.
Hank had a choice to make and he made the right choice.
Bonds had the same choice to make and he made the wrong choice. He chose.
The fact that MLB had not yet banned the substance is immaterial. The spirit and ideals of sport is what he betrayed. Against this, his surpassing of Aaron's record is naught but dust in the wind. Material, but meaningless.
Wilkey
Brickhouse
J.C. Newman owes me royalties.
I'm just glad it's over and baseball can move on....hopefully.
I do think he's a hell of a player and it takes an enormous amount of talent to accomplish what he did (obviously). But right or wrong....it will always be tainted....until AROD breaks it
I do think he's a hell of a player and it takes an enormous amount of talent to accomplish what he did (obviously). But right or wrong....it will always be tainted....until AROD breaks it
cigarsarge
BOHICA
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- 2,869
Henry Aaron did it with class...Bonds did it without. Which is better for baseball? The answer is obvious.
rob300c
The Big Noobowski
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-Rob
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Charley
The Coolest Guy You Know
You know it's true that guys like Ty Cobb and Ted Williams were known to be as*holes but they were not cheaters. Barry Bonds is an as*hole but he is also a cheater. True, he's never tested positive for steroid use but he HAS admitted to using them with regards to the BALCO hearings. He just claimed he "didn't know they were steroids when he was taking them". Now I find it quite rediculous that a professional athlete would take any substance without fully knowing exactly what it is. Was Barry a great player before the steriod use? Yes he was. But consider this, prior to his relationship with BALCO he had a career slugging percentage of .569 over 15 years and was hiting homeruns at a rate of 1 every 15 ABs. Then at age 37, after an extensive training program with BALCO, his slugging percentage over the following 4 years jumped to .805 and he began hitting homeruns at a rate of 1 every 7.85 ABs. I'm not disputing the fact that Barry is a talented athlete but you cannot dispute the fact that he is a CHEATER.
May he rot in hell.
May he rot in hell.
jeht2000
bodybuilder for life
My two pennies since I know bit about steriods from reading and from the real world. 1st, A LOT of people use steriods.Police officers, lawyers, and just the avg kid in the gym. Over the last few years it has become so easy to find and use steriod that people can't help but try it out especially since it has been sensationalized by the media. People think all they have to do is take that pill or injection and..bam, instint growth! Sadly, that's not the case. Firtst, you have to have the genetics. Steriods only get you a tad past whatever you can already do, mainly strength,and speed. And I do mean a tad, maybe 10percent. Maybe. Next comes nutrition and training. Now the average joe isn't going to do all the other stuff that's needed because they are already looking for a short cut for their limited genetics. But, when you get someone who is already gifted like a top sprinter (Marion Jones for example) it can make a world of a difference. That brings me to my other point and the main one. I do believe Barry used, USED is the key word, steriods but so have most of the people in the majors( my opinion) but he is still at the top of the heap. And again I say IS. If steriods was the MAIN reason for his accomplishments he would be on a down ward sprial but he isn't. Hes still knocking the ball out of the park. TALENT! EVERY record holder in the track and field has probably used steriods just like in any other sport where the competition is so close that your looking for that little edge. But unlike the other athletes(track and field mainly) in these sports he is still doing good. My hat goes off to him well done.
Also, the part someone said about him being an asshole. I would be too. I can't imagine the stress he is under with people criticisizing his EVERY move. I'm kind of quiet and because of that it probably would give the wrong impression to the media and some of the fans. Not to mention everyone wants something from you when your famous or can't wait for you to mess up so they can say, see he's not that good.
Again, my hats off. Job well done
Also, the part someone said about him being an asshole. I would be too. I can't imagine the stress he is under with people criticisizing his EVERY move. I'm kind of quiet and because of that it probably would give the wrong impression to the media and some of the fans. Not to mention everyone wants something from you when your famous or can't wait for you to mess up so they can say, see he's not that good.
Again, my hats off. Job well done
jeht2000
bodybuilder for life
Chris, he never admitted to using steriods. He said he never knowingly used it! His trainer was linked to conte.
One more tid bit to show how rampant steriods are. At the gym I use to belong to people use to come up to me ALL the time asking me what I did. And when I would try to tell them eat, they wouldn't want to believe it. They thought that because I was bigger than they are that it MUST be something that I have access to that they don't. Some secret steriod. And at this time I had never used anything. I was 235 at 5'10 and no one wanted to believe that it was hard work. And when I got up to 278...oh, it was non stop. Never mind the time I put into my nutrition or training all they knew is I was twice the size they were and they used all kinds of shit that I wouldn't dream of doing. People want short cuts and when its not working for them it must be something else. Steriods will not and can not make a champion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, almost forgot. If you don't KNOW him how can you say hes an asshole??? That might be what he seems like, but you don't know unless you know him.
One more tid bit to show how rampant steriods are. At the gym I use to belong to people use to come up to me ALL the time asking me what I did. And when I would try to tell them eat, they wouldn't want to believe it. They thought that because I was bigger than they are that it MUST be something that I have access to that they don't. Some secret steriod. And at this time I had never used anything. I was 235 at 5'10 and no one wanted to believe that it was hard work. And when I got up to 278...oh, it was non stop. Never mind the time I put into my nutrition or training all they knew is I was twice the size they were and they used all kinds of shit that I wouldn't dream of doing. People want short cuts and when its not working for them it must be something else. Steriods will not and can not make a champion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, almost forgot. If you don't KNOW him how can you say hes an asshole??? That might be what he seems like, but you don't know unless you know him.
Fatken
New Member
I have to disagree here, you mentioned Marion Jones, what did it do for her. Ten percent improvement is a great deal of change and I don't think a world class athlete would even get that much of a gain, but even two percent will put them over the finish line ahead of the competion.
Barry may not be juicing now, but to improve your game that much, at the age of 37, is quite remarkable and I belived that it would not have happened without steroids. Though he may have stopped taking roids, you have to see where juicing extended his career to enable this feat. I do agree, it is not as simple as taking the stuff, there is a lot of conditioning that has to go along with it.
I don't agree with the use of steriods, but I do understand it. To get to that level of play, most have to have an edge.
Ken
jeht2000
bodybuilder for life
I agree with most of what you said Ken except for the part about it extending his career. But I guess it's how you look at it. Yes, I believe it gave him that extra nudge to get to this point but steriods will shorten your career over-all because of the negative effects the extra muscle and strength has on your tendons.
And to answer you first question, what did steriods do for Marion Jones. Steriods(probably), made her just a hair faster. Which made her the best, which in turn made her a millionare. Don't forget she tested positive alittle while ago for EPO (I think it was EPO) which is used for endurance. So, all that sponsership went out the door and so did the money. They said she was down to $2k in the bank! Had to sell her moms house, and they foreclosed on her chapel hill home. Sad.
Almost forgot. To clarify my statment about steriods not making a champion. You can't just take the average person on the street and give them steriods and expect a top athlete. That might sound basic but thats what a lot of people think. Oh, if I used what he used I could probable do XYZ. Thats why you have soooo many people abusing the stuff now.
And to answer you first question, what did steriods do for Marion Jones. Steriods(probably), made her just a hair faster. Which made her the best, which in turn made her a millionare. Don't forget she tested positive alittle while ago for EPO (I think it was EPO) which is used for endurance. So, all that sponsership went out the door and so did the money. They said she was down to $2k in the bank! Had to sell her moms house, and they foreclosed on her chapel hill home. Sad.
Almost forgot. To clarify my statment about steriods not making a champion. You can't just take the average person on the street and give them steriods and expect a top athlete. That might sound basic but thats what a lot of people think. Oh, if I used what he used I could probable do XYZ. Thats why you have soooo many people abusing the stuff now.