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A comment on Puts/Takes

FatherTiresius said:
I don't think there's a simple formula that will tell you whether a trade is fair.
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Well, I agree about grey area and a lot of what has been said. No one here is going to perfect, and I don't think anyone expects that. As far as a simple formula, here is what I do:

I look at the "take" stick...I pretend as if I have a full un-opened box of them. Then I decide if I would be willing to trade that full un-opened box of that "take" stick staight-up for a full un-opened box of my "put" stick. If I can honestly say "yes" then it should be pretty darn fair. I figure if I'm not willing to give up a full box of what I'm "taking" for a full box of what I'm "putting" then something is wrong.

:)
 
Folks this seems simple enought to me. The originator of the pass lists the rules of the pass before it starts. If you don't like the rules don't play. If you play and have a question ask the originator. Do have one suggestion, perhaps the originator can post a ONLINE vendor to use to compare prices.
We all know prices vary, due to taxes, availabity, and other reasons. If everyone uses the same place all the prices are equal. But then again what do I know, I'm still a FNG :D

Wascal
 
I disagree with 1 thing there Sam...Wehn I go shop for singles to try, I usually pick up 3 or so. I smoke one then...smoke one a different time in a controlled setting, say outside reading the paper...If I didn't care for it the first time, but it passes my second test, I'll smoke the 3rd one at the bar. If I didn't care for it both times, then I usually don't smoke the 3rd. Does it mean they are rockets, usually not. It usually means it just isn't my type. For example...Short Stories don't do it for me, but other people rave about them. Am I going to unload them in various passes if they are in my box...of course. What it comes down to is trying new things and making new friends. Quality is subjective, in my eyes, the SS aren't quality, but to some one else they are. That's my .02 cents.

Emo
 
Just my thoughts on it... I'm pretty new here still, and my first pass, for lack of better words, was amazing. I never expected 90% of the smokes I received back. Personally, I'm not such a stickler as to what goes in and out, as long as you use common sense and enjoy the pass. I love the idea of sending out a box of cigars and reading what's going in and what people are taking, then getting back a box of smokes I've never tried, or absolutely love. I may be in the minority, but as long as your involved in the pass, you should at least be able to enjoy it, and not stress about "oh God, do I have to go out and buy special cigars for this one?" That's why I state in the beginning to not worry, because that may weed out someone that REALLY wants to be involved and try out something new, but backs out because they're afraid they're 'priced' out of the pass.

A perfect example was Horse's pass. I was really worried about my puts, because of the pressure that kind of is 'unsaid' on the boards. But he was really happy with what I put in. I think Matt's right on saying that if your out for better stuff, say it up front. I also don't think it should be frowned upon to actually be honest about it though either. This board's roots I believe are steeped in the tradition of enjoying fine cigars, what one person's rocket may be another persons vision of a premium. *shrug*

Now I've gone overboard and put in a ton more than needed on the few passes I've been involved with, and they may not have been $20 smokes, but I wanted to share with whoever created the pass my love of cigars, and give them something new to try. If the person didn't like them, hey, they can always put together another pass and someone out there will decide that they want something different, and take it and the cycle continues.

I also like the fact that almost everyone that I've been involved with either 'giftt's' much more than they need to, but people shouldn't get it in their head that you'll be able to do it 100% of the time, and should view them as just that; gifts. In my first pass, I can not begin to express the overwhelming feeling when the box came back with more smokes than I knew what to do with. Do I expect that to happen again? Not really. But it sure gave me the encouragment to overload PB's pass. How much you wanna bet one day he does the same thing to a newbie pass? And then that new guy becomes a old guy and does it to some other new guy, etc, etc. I've been online a long time and have never seen the generosity that comes through on this board.

I think in general passes shouldn't be about getting more/better, but get back to the enjoyment of passing cigars around to friends, and getting back a variety of new stuff.

Now so no one gets upset, I'm not saying anything negative about CigarPass, or it's members. Nothing typed here is aimed to hurt, anger or flame anyone. :)
 
Everyone has valid points, but I gotta tell ya, Beasts personal rule is probably the best, simple, easy to understand rule I've heard of for P&T's.

Way to go Beast!
Dave ;)
 
Wascal, I put in the bottom of my Going Home Pass 3 sites to use for a guide. Also, I tried to get some FOG's to re-write the FAQ's, but it never really went anywhere...I just topeed it so others can see, and maybe an FOG or and Admin type can re-write something.
 
I don't think it makes a lot of difference which site you use as a guide as long as you use the same one for cigar A and cigar B. Prices will vary somewhat from dealer to dealer on different cigars, but usually by not that much. The ones that Emo listed are good examples. The main thing is that they have a wide selection - you want them to carry both cigars in question.

I agree Beast's is a good rule of thumb and it's where we should all start when deciding what to put/take. There are cases however where it might still be a fair trade even thought it doesn't meet those criteria.

I also like Tony's attitude toward being the pass master: It's all good, don't stress over it too much. :thumbs:
 
I think the idea of listing a website to compare prices is a good though still not all together fair unless we are speaking only Havanas. I CAN and DO buy my Opus at MSRP, but some do not. So, to use a Joe Schmoe's website as an indicator of retail value is skewed because you will never find Opus at MSRP on a website. But, in general I think emo did a great service to his passers by listing some sites.
If someone wants to host a pass and outlines the rules succinctly and states "I am putting in Backwoods and will pass this around to you guys and I would like you to take two and put back in only Padron Anniversarios because that's what I like to smoke" and people actually sign up, they have the obligation to follow those rules. My point in all of this is that a pass like that should never take place. Start a pass, themed or not, with things you would like others to try and be happy when it comes back with exactly the same stuff with maybe a couple of different things. The other guys in the pass weren't allowed to take more than a couple in exchange for one or two, why should the originator expect to?
Now onto Beast's formula. As a concept it seems very fair and would work in most cases. But, If I have a box or two of something, I am more apt to let one or two single smokes go into a pass. If I have one or two cigars that I like and don't have regular access to them, they ain't going into a pass. So, I can't look at it that way in all cases. But, it still falls into the whole personal preference thing. Take for example someone exchanges an Opus #2 for a Padron Anniversario Torpedo in my pass. Both are similar in MSRP, both are somewhat hard to find, but, I don't like Nicaraguan cigars (in general, don't hold me to that forever though LOL) so in my eyes it may not be a fair trade, though if I had no interest in either cigar and looked at a trade for a box of Opus #2s for a box of Padron Torps I would say, "yeah, that's fair."
No matter what we do here, post links to websites to use as reference, set up a chart for what is fair and what is not, we're still going to be running in circles and getting nowhere. Bottom line to me is, don't be greedy when passing, as the originator or a participant. Don't get into a pass you don't feel you can meet the expectations of or don't want to meet the expectations of. If you're a participant, remember it is the originator's opinion that is golden so if he thinks the puts are fair, don't needle him into thinking they are not. And, last but not least, have fun and take everything said here with a grain of salt. Most of us have not met each other and while we consider each other friends, it's a helluva a lot easier to bitch and moan over the internet than it is in person. When you are doing your puts and takes try to picture yourself in a room with all the guys in the pass and pretend you're doing your exchanges with everyone present. Would you use the same logic in selecting as you would in the privacy of your own home? If so, then you are the kind of passer I would want to be in a Cigar Pass pass with. :)
 
Matt R said:
When you are doing your puts and takes try to picture yourself in a room with all the guys in the pass and pretend you're doing your exchanges with everyone present. Would you use the same logic in selecting as you would in the privacy of your own home? If so, then you are the kind of passer I would want to be in a Cigar Pass pass with. :)
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Yet another "simple" formula. :thumbs:

Good job Matt. I like that one too. :)
 
Matt R said:
"I am putting in Backwoods and will pass this around to you guys and I would like you to take two and put back in only Padron Anniversarios because that's what I like to smoke" and people actually sign up, they have the obligation to follow those rules.
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Well I think I was quite clear on the rules of my pass and was more than gracious to eliminate everyones responsibility of their "Puts" since I'm deciding them and their "Takes" since their won't be any. :D :sign: :D



There has been quite a few great points made in this thread. All of these points should be considered when joining a pass. Most passes (with the exception of a few) have been very direct with their expectations from participants. If you sign up for a pass with specific rules then you must follow them.....NO EXCEPTIONS!

Rule #2 of our "Rules of a Cigar Pass" states:

2.) Once you have received the box in a pass, you may take a few cigars (unless otherwise specified), and replace it with other cigars of equal or greater value. You may not place a lower quality/valued cigar (machine made, etc.) in the pass, unless otherwise specified.

While I believe that one paragraph says it all, it appears others want to rewrite the rule book. Phooey! We seem to be blowing this way out of proportion. Rule #2 is not a confusing rule. It is direct and precise. While we all have our opinions on whats fair value for different cigars a simple PM to the pass originator would be the simple solution if you have a doubt. Of course if you have a doubt you probally already answered your question.

Just my 4 cents....... carry on! :D

Matt - put the wooden spoon away! ;) :sign:
 
Well, obviously something is confusing with Rule #2 or else none of this would need to be said. LOL

Kenny, wooden spoon goes away, soapbox stays out for a bit. LMAO :thumbs:
 
Point well taken my friend! (pushing my soap box under the table) :)

Now where's my spoon? :p
 
Kenny...not wanting to rewrite it per say, but there definately some things that should be added...
 
Understand Emo, and just because I don't agree does not make it so. One thing age has taught me is how to agree to disagree. (except when talking to the wife.....shes always right! ;) )

I think that #2 clearly states everything and even gives the originator the opportunity to modify with the statement "unless otherwise specified". There comes a time that we need to put the responsibility on the host of the pass to keep control and not continue to add rules. I could agree with adding "contact the host if you are unsure of your put/take ratio" but that really goes back to what should have been spelled out in the beginning of the pass.

I'm going to use Horse as an example here. (hope you don't mind ??? ) Please refer to his Snob Pass under Passes in Progress. Look to the bottom of the 2nd page. I think Mark organized an excellent pass with excellent cigars, with excellent specific instructions which really only referenced rule #2. Thats all there is to it. Well done, too the point, all up front in the beginning.

Ah hell....there I go up on my soapbox again. Sorry guys...... I guess I just don't see the diffilculty in it all. Please forgive me for my rambling....... Can you tell its a slow day for me at work? ;)
 
Allofus123 said:
Understand Emo, and just because I don't agree does not make it so. One thing age has taught me is how to agree to disagree. (except when talking to the wife.....shes always right! ;) )

I think that #2 clearly states everything and even gives the originator the opportunity to modify with the statement "unless otherwise specified". There comes a time that we need to put the responsibility on the host of the pass to keep control and not continue to add rules. I could agree with adding "contact the host if you are unsure of your put/take ratio" but that really goes back to what should have been spelled out in the beginning of the pass.

I'm going to use Horse as an example here. (hope you don't mind ??? ) Please refer to his Snob Pass under Passes in Progress. Look to the bottom of the 2nd page. I think Mark organized an excellent pass with excellent cigars, with excellent specific instructions which really only referenced rule #2. Thats all there is to it. Well done, too the point, all up front in the beginning.

Ah hell....there I go up on my soapbox again. Sorry guys...... I guess I just don't see the diffilculty in it all. Please forgive me for my rambling....... Can you tell its a slow day for me at work? ;)
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Damn skippy she is always right...I think you misunderstand where I am coming from...I am in favor of not adding more rules. But there are some things that aren't real clear or unwritten. I thought maybe someone with some time on the board could help add to the FAQ's....
 
"You all know the rules........."


So I guess this is not enough information for you guys?


LMAO :D
 
There have been some excellent posts on this....but I kinda like the one Matt said about imagining you were doing your puts and takes in a room with everyone there. I like that suggestion and that's the one I will use.

Now, everybody have a cigar......... :D
 
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