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A comment on Puts/Takes

Matt R

Matt R

That's #1 Member to you. :)
Joined
Jan 5, 2001
Messages
5,988
If you are starting a pass and are hoping to get better cigars than you are putting in, or are expecting more than you started it with, maybe you shouldn't start the pass. I've had a couple notes from relative newbies who are a bit disenchanted with cigar passing because their puts were questioned and the puts/takes they told me they did were above and beyond the call of duty, IMHO. Don't get me wrong, if someone takes an Upmann Sir Winston Havana and puts a Papayo or a JR Ultimate, it should be questioned. The whole idea of cigar passes was for people to try new stuff or re-discover an old favorite and to share the same with other people. If someone is just wanting to dump a bunch of stuff they will never smoke and get super high quality smokes in return, to me that is not in the category of a true cigar pass. I know the regular/standard pass can get boring and new ideas are neat to try and the people signing up for them are agreeing to the rules posted, but, maybe it would be a good idea to step back and think about the reason you are doing the pass in the first place. Is it for "profit" or for fun? I'm sure this will not sit well with everyone and believe me I am not writing this with any one person in mind, but it is something I think needed to be addressed. So, if I anger anyone, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to give free reign to participants of passes, just a bit more consideration to one person's take on what is fair and what is not.
 
i am a complete newbie, haven't even been in my first pass yet.
but i've read alot on the pass boards and my feelings are ,you
should always try to put more or better quality in, than you take.
to me that's just the way it should be done.
i've read a lot of examples to that effect. everyone here seems to try to make it better for the next guy in line which trickles down to the guy who actually started the pass.
even if you can only take one of something mid priced so that you can put in two of something else, you're still particpating and hopefully taking something you've never tried before. just make it fit your budget.
well enough rambling . i hope i haven't put my foot in my mouth (or anywhere else).
glenn
 
gws3:
I agree wholeheartedly, just feel that it should not be obligatory to go over and above what is expected.
 
You know, for me.......I've only started 2 passes myself. One here and one that I just got back today from another board.

In my limited experience, I got together a bunch of smokes I thought others would want to try or maybe couldn't get in their respective areas.

In both cases, I was amazed at how generous people are and really went above and beyond in their puts! Some even stuck something in there for just me, which was thoughtful!

I love passing, because you never know what may show up and you can experience so much more of what's out there! That's why I do it and will continue to participate! I also always take care of the guy who started the pass, just as others have done for mine!

Have fun! That's what it's about!

Thanks for posting this Matt!

Lee :D
 
Great point Matt.


I only start a pass so that others (mainly the newer guys can try some cigars they wouldn't have had the chance of trying yet.)
I believe that this is the thinking from the guys here at CP.

It certainly isn't about upgrading or hoping for better sticks than I start with. If I want better cigars I will order them.

To me the value of sharing is higher than that value of a fancy or limited edition cigar.


Although I can see where a person would get that Idea from watching the passes, you know start with the best you have and end up getting back some fantastic cigars as a result. But that happens only becasue most every member here is generious allmost to a fault. We like to treat our friends to something we may have that they may like - and there is nothing wrong with that.
The feeling that can sneak in is wow wee look at those cigars (I got to do that again!)

I have learned my share of lessions being a member of Cigar Pass, and one of them is if people aren't signing up for a pass, there is something not right about the pass. (for me I sometimes make them too confusing) or even maybe the members aren't real happy with how I have handled myself. The later was a tough and personal lession but with friends like I have among you CP'rs we all can learn.

Hbooker
 
Matt, If you have followed my own pass, you will see that the standard of the passers here have all gone way above, some more above than others, and I see that as a norm all over this board. I do however agree with you that it should not be considered a rule to do so.

However, at the same time, if "someone is just wanting to dump a bunch of stuff they will never smoke and get super high quality smokes in return" then as long as that is what they state in the opening, and everyone is in agreement to the plan, then that is what that pass is about.

I personally have no problem with that, as long as it is not stated or percieved to be Standard Pass Rules, because as we all know, it isn't. I came in here as a newbie, I read the rules of a pass, and then I read through many completed and on-going passes before I ever signed up for one. I decided for myself to follow what I saw as a norm, rather than the stated rules. I would like for all newbies to know that Above and Beyond is NOT a requirement. You simply have to do Q for Q and Q for Q. I think the way most of you Out of Control Wild Guy passers do your Puts may intimidate some newbies by making them think they must follow suit. Don't get me wrong here, if it is MY Pass, you may feel free to Go as far above and beyond as you want :D but I don't want any new folks staying out of really fun passes because they think they have to do the same.

Furthermore, I do not think anyone would complain if I were to say, I am starting a Pass to unload some Top Shelf stuff. Take 2 top shelfers and put in a nice handful of your Dog rockets. I have a feeling some folks might Jump all over that!! So....doing the reverse doesn't seem out of line to me at all. As the standard rules state, .......

These are just some basic rules. More will be added as neccessary

The originator of the pass may specify different rules

Not every pass will be the same

:D Have Fun! :D
 
I agree with Matt about "pass organizer" shouldn't be expecting to stock up on a pass or get back far better smokes than in the original line-up. If you send out 30, you should expect 30 of equal or greater value back. Anything beyond that is a gift. What I don't agree with is situations where passers were informed that they did not meet the requirements set forth in the CP Rules "equal or greater value". If someone brings it up, chances are someone else had brought it up privatley also and maybe one person has to be the "bad guy" but more than one party thought it to be a problem. Too much has slipped here recently. The "puts and takes" by some members, newbies and experienced, or flat out GRAP!!! It is through my experiences that these matters are brought up privately between several parties before anything is ever said. It seems to me if anything, these situations are not brought up enough. There should be some margin of error here, don't get me wrong...no one is perfect, but there have been just some flat out obvious lack of value between "puts and takes" recently, IMHO.
 
Yall are all full of it........ I'm starting a pass tomorrow and you don't need to sign up because everyones on the list and I'm not sending out any cigars to start and when you get the pass you are to call me and tell me what you have in your current inventory in which I will decide what and how many you are to put and then send it on to the next person. Once the last person gets it if I'm not happy with the total amount of cigars and/or the quality yall will be required to re-pass it again until I get what I want. Anyone that complains will have to send me a bottle of booze (again, my choice) each month for the next year. Now at any time in the next 5 years if I decide I want to try any other cigars that you have aquired you will again need to provide me with a current inventory of your cigars so that I may decide what I would like. Now first and foremost is for everyone to have fun..... I don't won't anyone not to enjoy themselves so I decided to have a contest along the way that everyone must participate in. The contest will be whatever I decide it to be and the winner will be who I decide it to be and the prize will be.......allowing someone to send me more cigars. Now what can be more fun then that? Wait, don't answer that yet, there's more. Anyone that sends me any kind of jewlry with a street value of more than $5,000 will be exempt from the contest. Yes, I know, some of you don't have anything that would fit into that catagory and I bet you thought I would forget about you..... No way dudes! You can come to my house (at your expense and you must bring more cigars) and do $5,000 of what ever it is that you do. Weither its painting, landscaping, room additions, pool installations, hot rod car builder....you get the picture. I know there will be some people that think this is a bit overboard but hey...screw them, what do they know!

OK, I'll get this puppy out tomorrow.....yall get your depends out..... I'm getting all excited just thinking about it, I know yall are too.

:sneaky: :sign: :sneaky:
 
I handle "Pool Installations", Kenny. Unfortunatley I charge $250 an hour for Construction Managment. So after you get your $5000 worth, you will still owe me a balance of $7000. When do you want me on the plane to Texas????LMFAO :p
 
Hmm why do these discussions always seem to pop up when I've got a pass on the road?

Same song, second verse.
 
Hmmm, not directed at anyone inparticular....? ???

S'ok - no harm, no foul.

Theoretically speaking, let's say we were talking about my passes..... If I offended anyone by my wording, let me apologize. That was obviously not my intention. For my high-end pass, I put the rule of better quality/quantity because I thought that was the norm (perhaps I better go re-read the rules), obviously that was NOT the case. NO biggie. I apologize for that. As you can see, I quickly changed it to equal quantity/quality. My In The Bag pass was not meant to take advantage of anyone, just a way for me to clear out some space, and give some others the chance to build up some bulk for in-the-car/yard smokes. If anyone is uncomfortable joining either of mine, then by all means, DON'T!

I'm only trying to have fun here, and perhaps in my enthusiasm, chose some poor wording.

Now of course, this whole thread wasn't directed at anyone inparticular, so take everything I just said and toss it out the window. :p Seriously, I'm sure many people were refered to in the writing of your letter, Matt - I understand that. It's not that I'm trying to defend my position, just explain it.

That's about it,
Dave ;)
 
Really Dave, it was not directed at you. It was however your wording that got me thinking and made me take this stance. I know you are a top notch passer and a helluva a guy, so please don't think I was singling you out, I would have said so if I was. If a pass outlines that it is one to get rid of your rockets and get good stuff and people sign up then yes, like Puro said, they know what they are in for. As for puts/takes ratios being out of whack, I don't read all the threads for every pass, but the ones I do all seem to be fair. There is no one website to use for retail prices of non-Havanas except to use MSRP which in general is only published for a few different cigars. Taxes vary from state to state and what I pay $10 for another person may pay $20 for. Now, if I take cigar A that cost me $5, but cost the originator $10 and I put back in cigar B that cost me $10, but would be $5 for the originator to buy, am I doing wrong? Or if I take an Opus X Double Corona that I can buy for $15 and put back in two Opus X petite lanceros that cost me $7.50 each, is that wrong? You see, there are so many variables that pass originators need to be very careful of accusing someone of "stealing" without trying to understand why things went the way they did. And, on the same note, anyone other than the pass originator(s) should have nothing to say about puts and takes unless the originators have made it public their dissatisfaction. Even then, words should be chosen wisely as you may not have all the facts. These are just my rambling thoughts and they really don't mean much because with all the different variables involved not everyone is going to be pleased all the time when it comes to cigar passing.
 
I agree with your post Bruddah Matt.... very well said!

Aloha Bro,

Wade
 
Well articulated Matt........and of benefit to all of us listeners/participants
...........thanks :love:
 
Matt, I agree completely that there are lots of gray areas here. E.g.,
Now, if I take cigar A that cost me $5, but cost the originator $10 and I put back in cigar B that cost me $10, but would be $5 for the originator to buy, am I doing wrong?
Click to expand...
More likely you're doing him (or the pass, actually) a big favor. If cigar A is twice as much for him, cigar B probably is too, so in his eyes, you took a $10 cigar and replaced it with a $20 one. But point taken, it just points out the need to use a common online seller as a price reference. But price isn't the only consideration:
Or if I take an Opus X Double Corona that I can buy for $15 and put back in two Opus X petite lanceros that cost me $7.50 each, is that wrong?
Click to expand...
This is a perfect example. If it were my pass this would probably also be a good thing. I love the DCs but I rarely have an opportunity to smoke the big sticks, so I might rather have the Lanceros. In somebody else's pass, they might feel shorted.

Another thing to consider is that in the latter example, you've replaced one top shelf cigar with two, thus giving more people a chance to try an Opus. Also, more people would likely have something to replace a lancero with. This kind of swap might be appropriate in a 'regular' pass with a some newbies yet to come behind you, but not in Edicion Limitada. At a certain point this breaks down; you couldn't replace the $7.50 Opus with two $3.25 Astral TVS's. This is due to the the rarity of the Opus, not the price differential.

What about the inverse? Can I replace two Short Stories with a Masterpiece?

In the end, I think we all have to make a judgement call based on what kind of pass it is, who's running it & who else is in it with you. I don't think there's a simple formula that will tell you whether a trade is fair. It's context dependant. So sometimes mistakes get made (I'd hate to think that some of us are deliberately trying to short a pass). When it happens the pass master should politely and privately point it out and give the passer a chance to explain. Maybe there were other factors that weren't considered.

As an aside, I'd like to say this:
I'm still new here; I've been in only 3 passes. I'd like to think that so far my trades were fair. However, if now or in the future a pass organizer thinks I've shorted the pass, I'd hope that he would say something to me. That's not something I really want to hear, but I'd rather that than have him forever thinking that I gypped the pass and not tell me. And if I did it once, not knowing any better, I'll do it again.
 
Father T. makes some good points and I agree. :)
 
I'm a complete newbie when it comes to passing. Matter of fact my first pass is the "Almost Announmous Pass" going on here and in a couple weeks on another board will be doing a premium pass and participating in another one.

A couple rules that I am/will be going by is:

1) Check with the host if your unsure of something. Simple and no worries afterwards about whether the put/take is "ok".

2) To me as a participant of a pass it is not your job to "unload" your smokes you don't want or just taking up space in your humidor - it's your job to put in smokes you DO like and smoke and would like to share.

To me a cigar pass isn't about gaining a lot of smokes - there are plenty of places to buy cigars with whatever income you have to do so with.

It is not about unloading a bunch of smokes your not going to smoke or on a lower taste scale than your normally used to. As I discover smokes and gather a few here and there and come accross a brand I don't care for or don't want to smoke anymore I put aside and keep my eyes opened. Already have I discovered people who DO like that particular smoke and hey guess what? It's now there's no strings attached have a good day :) When I do my passes in the future here and there I can guarantee there won't be a smoke going out that I don't thouroughly enjoy.

And these quanity for quality trades and passes... when I was brand spanking new to cigars in period (nevermind the boards around) I would of thought "great deal". To be honest - and this is just my opinion, it's not worth it. Where I live for example has several cigar shops, 4 good quality ones within 20 minutes from where I am but none of them have premiums much. Matter of fact in the last 2 months the best I have seen was 1 box of VSG with individual sticks going for $14 a pop and a couple boxes of Short Stories (one place had them amazingly for only $4.95/ea woohoo!) and one place had a box of Classics... 4 places, 2 months, only 3 options for good cigars - oh 4 - one place does have PAN's for like $15-$18 ea. Seeing my point here? Why after all the trouble AND expense to get a quality smoke I enjoy would I want to trade it away for a bunch of everyday $1-$3 cigars that I can find in any of my local cigar shops?

Anyway to me a cigar box pass is about quality, about friendship, about experiences. This concludes my discourse - and if I offended anyone, it really was not my intention.

Sam
 
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