The great Fyodor blind taste test!

[Sportsdls]

However in a blind test if they constantly choose the Belgian beers over the American beers, even if they aren't such which is which, then they prefer Belgian. They might not be able to pick one out of a blind line up, but if they like it consistently in a blind line up then they prefer it. They aren't mutually inclusive, however if you consider yourself a connoisseur then you should be able to pick out the distinctions that make you enjoy it.

Yes, I understand that -- but there clearly is not enough data to even begin considering making such assumptions. In fact, it'd be ridiculous to do so. The statement is predicated on the fact that averaging the scores thus far, he (just barely) prefers Cuban cigars. Given the 1/10 rating given to the Tatuaje Black, an obvious "throw away" rating, it seems obvious that no such assumptions can be made... even putting aside the fact that we're talking about only 5 cigars in the sample pool.

In any event, let's hope he gets to another cigar today!

Agreed. There is far too small of a sample to determine any of these factors, but it is very eye-opening. I find myself anxiously awaiting each new review.

 

[rbbrock]

However in a blind test if they constantly choose the Belgian beers over the American beers, even if they aren't such which is which, then they prefer Belgian. They might not be able to pick one out of a blind line up, but if they like it consistently in a blind line up then they prefer it. They aren't mutually inclusive, however if you consider yourself a connoisseur then you should be able to pick out the distinctions that make you enjoy it.

Yes, I understand that -- but there clearly is not enough data to even begin considering making such assumptions. In fact, it'd be ridiculous to do so. The statement is predicated on the fact that averaging the scores thus far, he (just barely) prefers Cuban cigars. Given the 1/10 rating given to the Tatuaje Black, an obvious "throw away" rating, it seems obvious that no such assumptions can be made... even putting aside the fact that we're talking about only 5 cigars in the sample pool.

In any event, let's hope he gets to another cigar today!

Moki, my averaging the scores thus far was not the basis for my statement, it was meant simply as an illustration of my premise: it should be possible to actually prefer something without being able to consistently pick it out. Obviously I realize that the sample size is far too small, and at this point flawed (given the Tat Black), for such an averaging to mean anything at all. While it does indeed seem obvious that no assumptions can be made, as of yet, about whether he prefers Cuban cigars, I likewise don't think one can assume that simply because he cannot pick them out he does not like them more.

 

[moki]

Agreed. There is far too small of a sample to determine any of these factors, but it is very eye-opening. I find myself anxiously awaiting each new review.

Let's hope he gets to another one today then!

 

[moki]

Moki, my averaging the scores thus far was not the basis for my statement, it was meant simply as an illustration of my premise: it should be possible to actually prefer something without being able to consistently pick it out. Obviously I realize that the sample size is far too small, and at this point flawed (given the Tat Black), for such an averaging to mean anything at all. While it does indeed seem obvious that no assumptions can be made, as of yet, about whether he prefers Cuban cigars, I likewise don't think one can assume that simply because he cannot pick them out he does not like them more.

Please re-read my first post in this thread, and also please re-read the thread that started this whole blind taste test. It is predicated on his belief that there is a "Cuban cigar taste" -- but if he cannot pick out that "Cuban cigar taste", how can one argue that it exists?

 

[rbbrock]

Moki, my averaging the scores thus far was not the basis for my statement, it was meant simply as an illustration of my premise: it should be possible to actually prefer something without being able to consistently pick it out. Obviously I realize that the sample size is far too small, and at this point flawed (given the Tat Black), for such an averaging to mean anything at all. While it does indeed seem obvious that no assumptions can be made, as of yet, about whether he prefers Cuban cigars, I likewise don't think one can assume that simply because he cannot pick them out he does not like them more.

Please re-read my first post in this thread, and also please re-read the thread that started this whole blind taste test. It is predicated on his belief that there is a "Cuban cigar taste" -- but if he cannot pick out that "Cuban cigar taste", how can one argue that it exists?

I understand that, and I agree with that aspect of the test completely. I'm not saying a Cuban taste does or doesn't exist. I was disagreeing only with this statement:

t's hard to say you prefer something if you have a difficult time picking it out when you have it!

Which is entirely separate from being able to identify the cigar.

 

[bfreebern]

I don't see it being different. If he states that he prefers Cuban cigars over NC and he can't tell the difference, how much weight is put on his "preference"?

If a buddy of mine states that he prefers Kobe Beef over Angus Beef, yet he continually can't tell the difference.......I'm going to laugh at him and keep feeding him Angus, b/c he can't tell the difference.

 

[moki]

t's hard to say you prefer something if you have a difficult time picking it out when you have it!

Which is entirely separate from being able to identify the cigar.

This is getting really tedious and pedantic. My supposition is that (as in all of the past blind taste tests I've done) Cuban cigars will be rated (overall) about the same as non-Cuban cigars, so no clear bias will be shown in either direction.

I understand what you're saying -- that he might not be able to guess what the country of origin is, but that despite that, he might show a bias towards Cuban cigars in his ratings. I get it. Thank you. Are we done here?

 

[rbbrock]

Take a hypothetical, but not unrealistic, test: I smoke 100 cigars blind, 50 CC, 50 NC. I cannot reliably identify them as CC or NC, doing no better than a flip of the coin (as I've no doubt would be the case). Now, let's say I scored them all on a scale of 1 to 10, and the average scores were 7 for the NC and 8 for the CC. Can I identify Cubans? No. Do I prefer them? It would appear so.

 

[rbbrock]

t's hard to say you prefer something if you have a difficult time picking it out when you have it!

Which is entirely separate from being able to identify the cigar.

This is getting really tedious and pedantic. My supposition is that (as in all of the past blind taste tests I've done) Cuban cigars will be rated (overall) about the same as non-Cuban cigars, so no clear bias will be shown in either direction.

I understand what you're saying -- that he might not be able to guess what the country of origin is, but that despite that, he might show a bias towards Cuban cigars in his ratings. I get it. Thank you. Are we done here?

I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't intend to initiate a long, drawn out, boring argument over semantics. :blush: Let's have another review, Fyodor! :thumbs:

 

[moki]

Take a hypothetical, but not unrealistic, test: I smoke 100 cigars blind, 50 CC, 50 NC. I cannot reliably identify them as CC or NC, doing no better than a flip of the coin (as I've no doubt would be the case). Now, let's say I scored them all on a scale of 1 to 10, and the average scores were 7 for the NC and 8 for the CC. Can I identify Cubans? No. Do I prefer them? It would appear so.

rbbrock, I understood what you were saying a dozen posts ago. Again... are we done here? If you'd like to try proving your hypothesis (which goes contrary to the results I've seen from my tests in terms of overall average scores), I'd suggest you do so.... start a thread, start a blind taste test specifically geared towards that.

Short of that -- let it rest. I understand what you're saying... additional pedantic arguments/explanations are not necessary.

 

[rbbrock]

rbbrock, I understood what you were saying a dozen posts ago.

Well why didn't you just say so?

Again... are we done here? If you'd like to try proving your hypothesis (which goes contrary to the results I've seen from my tests in terms of overall average scores), I'd suggest you do so.... start a thread, start a blind taste test specifically geared towards that.

Short of that -- let it rest. I understand what you're saying... additional pedantic arguments/explanations are not necessary.

Sometimes I lose sight of the forest for the trees. Sorry about that. (Sometimes I derive a perverse enjoyment out of arguing over trivialities, as well, for which I apologize even more vehemently.)

In any case, this experiment is very interesting, and I'm really looking forward to the rest of it without my unnecessary, punctilious interruption.

Edit: fixed a quote error.

 

[Fyodor]

Cigar no. 6






This cigar was a real beauty. It was very smooth, refined, balanced and complex. The prelight revealed very little but was pleasant. They really don't come any smother than this, not the slightest hint of harshness. It started off with a blast of Spanish cedar which dissipated and a very tasty toffee like flavor. The complexity was really amazing though. It grabbed my attention and held it throughout. This cigar continued to develop new flavors. Among them, almonds, black pepper, steak, leather, milk chocolate, floral notes, a grapefruit like citrus quality, cream. It also had a bit of a rubbery taste that I wasn't real fond of but it came and went and didn't really detract from the over all experience. After a while I quit trying to pick out flavors and just had to sit back and enjoy. It was medium bodied and the flavors really harmonized well. It was very savory and it was hard to keep from over puffing in the beginning. It had a short finish and left my palate clean. Nothing about it really points to a Cuban or Nicaraguan origin. It seemed to have more in common with cigars from the Dominican. If that is the case it's definitely among my favorites from that country. I hope these are readily available because I certainly wouldn't mind smoking another. 9/10




Verdict- nonCuban

 

[moki]

Cigar no. 6

This cigar was a real beauty. It was very smooth, refined, balanced and complex. The prelight revealed very little but was pleasant. They really don't come any smother than this, not the slightest hint of harshness. It started off with a blast of Spanish cedar which dissipated and a very tasty toffee like flavor. The complexity was really amazing though. It grabbed my attention and held it throughout. This cigar continued to develop new flavors. Among them, almonds, black pepper, steak, leather, milk chocolate, floral notes, a grapefruit like citrus quality, cream. It also had a bit of a rubbery taste that I wasn't real fond of but it came and went and didn't really detract from the over all experience. After a while I quit trying to pick out flavors and just had to sit back and enjoy. It was medium bodied and the flavors really harmonized well. It was very savory and it was hard to keep from over puffing in the beginning. It had a short finish and left my palate clean. Nothing about it really points to a Cuban or Nicaraguan origin. It seemed to have more in common with cigars from the Dominican. If that is the case it's definitely among my favorites from that country. I hope these are readily available because I certainly wouldn't mind smoking another. 9/10

Verdict- nonCuban

Cigar #6 results

Fyodor says:

Cigar rating: 9/10
Origin guess: Dominican
Cuban/non-Cuban: non-Cuban

Survey says:

Actual origin: Nicaraguan
Cigar #6 is a: non-Cuban Tatuaje Maravilla (5 5/8" x 46)

Commentary:

Ahhhhh, looks like you wavered a bit on this one, but in the end you settled on the right answer! It is indeed a non-Cuban cigar, and a fine one at that. This is a "circumcised" Tatuaje Maravilla (I cut the foot off so the shag foot wasn't a give-away), created for Leaf and Ale back in 2006. It was a bit of a powerhouse back then, but has been mellowing into a really nice rich, tasty cigar.

If you liked this cigar, the Tatuaje Havana Cazadores with a bit of age on 'em, or the Tatuaje Noellas would like appeal to you as well. I personally am looking forward to finding out what some of Pete's creations taste like when deeply aged.

Nice job Fyodor, another mark in your favor!

One other note... I find it really puzzling that you loved this cigar, but absolutely detested the Tatuaje Black Label. Oh well.

Results so far:

#1 - Cuban Montecristo Tubos 1970s -- (5/10) guessed non-Cuban, Domincan or Honduran - Incorrect
#2 - non-Cuban Cabaiguan WCD 120 -- (9/10) guessed Cuban - Incorrect
#3 - non-Cuban Tatuaje Black Label -- (1/10) guessed non-Cuban, "a country not meant to be growing tobacco" - Correct!
#4 - Cuban H. Upmann Sir Winston -- (7/10) guessed non-Cuban, Dominican - Incorrect
#5 - Cuban Montecristo Reserva No.4 -- (8/10) guessed non-Cuban, Nicaraguan - Incorrect
#6 - non-Cuban Tatuaje Maravilla -- (9/10) guessed non-Cuban, Dominican - Correct!

Score: Cigars 4, Fyodor 2

 

[Fyodor]

That Black label was just a fluke. I should have smoked more of it too. That being said this cigar seems way different to me. I have always loved Pepin/Tatuaje cigars and I'm not surprised they are scoring the highest for me.

 

[moki]

That Black label was just a fluke. I should have smoked more of it too. That being said this cigar seems way different to me. I have always loved Pepin/Tatuaje cigars and I'm not surprised they are scoring the highest for me.

Yeah who knows.... it's unfortunate, because although I do like Pete's regular line, I've found the Tatuaje Black Labels to be singularly tasty.

 

[merkinmullet]

but if he cannot pick out that "Cuban cigar taste", how can one argue that it exists?

This has been one of the sticking points in the tests I have seen. Are you, Moki, challenging that a person can pick out the "Cuban cigar taste", or what the smoker has been trained to taste as similarities in Cubans given the sample of CCs he's tasted? The similarities might not be exclusive Cuban tastes, but what the smoker has come to recognize as Cuban.

This test might be valid if he has tasted every Cuban available. Perhaps, the certain CCs he's tasted have a similarity, which has been associated with Cuban, because he knew the origins. So the similarities have all been categorized as "Cuban", when in fact the true name of what he is tasting is "X". Now, you introduce NC cigars that also have "X" as a component of the flavor, and, BAM=Cuban. You can introduce these flavors, because you can recognize them!!!!

What are we actually testing here? This goes levels deeper than just "Cuban vs Non-Cuban". This is about perception based upon knowledge/experience with a limited sample. Fyodor has not smoked every vitola of every marca and found the one constant between them all. So, how can he possibly have the knowledge to pick out a Cuban from a line up?

On a side note, isn't there a machine that can authenticate Cubans? I think it was ~$15-20K and takes about 15 minutes. If the machine can do it, humans can.

 

[merkinmullet]

Sorry, Andrew I posted before I got to this.

Thank you. Are we done here?

**Speeling**

 

[moki]

but if he cannot pick out that "Cuban cigar taste", how can one argue that it exists?

This has been one of the sticking points in the tests I have seen. Are you, Moki, challenging that a person can pick out the "Cuban cigar taste", or what the smoker has been trained to taste as similarities in Cubans given the sample of CCs he's tasted? The similarities might not be exclusive Cuban tastes, but what the smoker has come to recognize as Cuban.

This test might be valid if he has tasted every Cuban available. Perhaps, the certain CCs he's tasted have a similarity, which has been associated with Cuban, because he knew the origins. So the similarities have all been categorized as "Cuban", when in fact the true name of what he is tasting is "X". Now, you introduce NC cigars that also have "X" as a component of the flavor, and, BAM=Cuban. You can introduce these flavors, because you can recognize them!!!!

What are we actually testing here? This goes levels deeper than just "Cuban vs Non-Cuban". This is about perception based upon knowledge/experience with a limited sample. Fyodor has not smoked every vitola of every marca and found the one constant between them all. So, how can he possibly have the knowledge to pick out a Cuban from a line up?

On a side note, isn't there a machine that can authenticate Cubans? I think it was ~$15-20K and takes about 15 minutes. If the machine can do it, humans can.

sigh... not another one...

merkinmullet, this has all been explained in the first post in this thread, as well as in the thread that precipitated this one.

 

[MindRiot]

lol

 

[merkinmullet]

Sorry, Andrew I posted before I got to this.

Thank you. Are we done here?

sigh... not another one...

merkinmullet, this has all been explained in the first post in this thread, as well as in the thread that precipitated this one.

I was merely questioning the validity of your test. An old old habit from Psych school. I truly appriciate your generosity and expertise in sponsoring this. I'll refrain from here on out. Thanks.