Recent events...

[DePasta]

With everyone saying this was a "needed post"....how many times does Rod have to make this type of post before there is a change in attitudes?

I've only been here a year and this has to be at least the second or third time I've read such a heartfelt plea from the man.

Does everybody listen to the Forum's owner?

Let's call a spade a spade...it seems there are some members that ALWAYS think these requests from Rod don't pertain to them.

Plain & simple, what we have here is the occasional abuse of seniority. These folks have a good portion of the membership walking on egg shells about what they should post....and that's after they THINK, RE-THINK, and RE-THINK AGAIN what they wrote before they decide to post it. Proof of this is when I meet other members and we discuss CP while smoking a cigar....to a man, all have agreed it's BS. They either choose to ignore it or consciously stay out of it for reasons of being "selected as a target." But all agree, it's a dark cloud over what is largely a great place to hang out and meet B&SOTL.

Ask yourself this, if you were the Father of this website and a new person came here to poke around for the first time...should some of these negative threads be one of the first items they find? It's not just one or two threads, when this crap starts, some of the posters LINK to other outlandish threads as well...so one thread can become compounded with numerous negative comments of similar versions of yesteryear.

The 'baiting', hidden by clever & creative writing, has got to stop. The dismissive statements to newcomers, who ask truthful and honest questions, has got to stop. The condescending statements, to those in disagreement , has got to stop.

Last Fall/Winter we associated the negative vibes to "typical Holiday tensions"...what will we attach this one to?

As always, thanks for your patiences Rod....I hope it holds out.

That is your point of view, others see it differently.

 

[tone-ny]

I would just ban people based on their ability to not follow Cigar Pass rules. Once this happens people would be less inclined to behave in a sophomoric fashion. I'm tired of the name calling and belittling of people it has no place here. There are better ways of handling ones displeasure with a person or group of people. Like in all things your mileage may vary.

Rod moderation is not the answer. Certainly that would be your call and who you chose as moderators. Whatever you do decide I will support your efforts.

 

[jayro75]

With everyone saying this was a "needed post"....how many times does Rod have to make this type of post before there is a change in attitudes?

I've only been here a year and this has to be at least the second or third time I've read such a heartfelt plea from the man.

Does everybody listen to the Forum's owner?

Let's call a spade a spade...it seems there are some members that ALWAYS think these requests from Rod don't pertain to them.

Plain & simple, what we have here is the occasional abuse of seniority. These folks have a good portion of the membership walking on egg shells about what they should post....and that's after they THINK, RE-THINK, and RE-THINK AGAIN what they wrote before they decide to post it. Proof of this is when I meet other members and we discuss CP while smoking a cigar....to a man, all have agreed it's BS. They either choose to ignore it or consciously stay out of it for reasons of being "selected as a target." But all agree, it's a dark cloud over what is largely a great place to hang out and meet B&SOTL.

Ask yourself this, if you were the Father of this website and a new person came here to poke around for the first time...should some of these negative threads be one of the first items they find? It's not just one or two threads, when this crap starts, some of the posters LINK to other outlandish threads as well...so one thread can become compounded with numerous negative comments of similar versions of yesteryear.

The 'baiting', hidden by clever & creative writing, has got to stop. The dismissive statements to newcomers, who ask truthful and honest questions, has got to stop. The condescending statements, to those in disagreement , has got to stop.

Last Fall/Winter we associated the negative vibes to "typical Holiday tensions"...what will we attach this one to?

As always, thanks for your patiences Rod....I hope it holds out.

That is your point of view, others see it differently.

Yet others agree with it wholeheartedly.

 

[Keystone_Raider]

I think you can all relate…once something is no longer fun, there's no point in continuing it … or you make a change that will result in a positive outcome.

I used to operate a Martial Arts Academy with a partner and we did it for the love of it, never charging enough, struggling to pay the rent but thoroughly enjoying ourselves for the first 6 or 7 years. Then it quit becoming fun, he left and I closed it down a year or so later.

So I can relate with what you are saying but I hope that you find a way to make that change that results in the positive outcome.

 

[NullSmurf]

I know where you're coming from, Tony. Establishing mods is almost an admission of the defeat of the self moderated board. I'm not convinced thats a bad thing, though. Sometimes, I just want to scream "don't make me stop this car!." Some here enjoy positions of leadership, but only by respect and influence. Newbs do stupid shit that require some direction. So do (did) our kids.

On the other hand, there has to be free and open debate. Sometimes that involves screaming and shouldn't be interfered with.

 

[SamClemmons]

With everyone saying this was a "needed post"....how many times does Rod have to make this type of post before there is a change in attitudes?

I've only been here a year and this has to be at least the second or third time I've read such a heartfelt plea from the man.

Does everybody listen to the Forum's owner?

Let's call a spade a spade...it seems there are some members that ALWAYS think these requests from Rod don't pertain to them.

Plain & simple, what we have here is the occasional abuse of seniority. These folks have a good portion of the membership walking on egg shells about what they should post....and that's after they THINK, RE-THINK, and RE-THINK AGAIN what they wrote before they decide to post it. Proof of this is when I meet other members and we discuss CP while smoking a cigar....to a man, all have agreed it's BS. They either choose to ignore it or consciously stay out of it for reasons of being "selected as a target." But all agree, it's a dark cloud over what is largely a great place to hang out and meet B&SOTL.

Ask yourself this, if you were the Father of this website and a new person came here to poke around for the first time...should some of these negative threads be one of the first items they find? It's not just one or two threads, when this crap starts, some of the posters LINK to other outlandish threads as well...so one thread can become compounded with numerous negative comments of similar versions of yesteryear.

The 'baiting', hidden by clever & creative writing, has got to stop. The dismissive statements to newcomers, who ask truthful and honest questions, has got to stop. The condescending statements, to those in disagreement , has got to stop.

Last Fall/Winter we associated the negative vibes to "typical Holiday tensions"...what will we attach this one to?

As always, thanks for your patiences Rod....I hope it holds out.

Now THIS is creative writing but it's a little short on the clever end. Nice try peddler.

A while back I posted a sale thread which quickly turned into an opportunity for some guys with an agenda to attack me and impune my character. I gave as bad as I got. Yesterday, one of those people decided to attack me again in a thread I had nothing to do with and had never posted in. There wasn't anything clever or creative in that little bit of nonsense. Did you miss that thread peddler?

Now we've got the same guys from the "sale" thread spouting of in this one. You people are so transparent. Nice to see you haven't lost any of that angst jayro... you sweet boy.

NA

 

[tone-ny]

I know where you're coming from, Tony. Establishing mods is almost an admission of the defeat of the self moderated board. I'm not convinced thats a bad thing, though. Sometimes, I just want to scream "don't make me stop this car!." Some here enjoy positions of leadership, but only by respect and influence. Newbs do stupid shit that require some direction. So do (did) our kids.

On the other hand, there has to be free and open debate. Sometimes that involves screaming and shouldn't be interfered with.

My point exactly, time to stop the car and administer the ass whooping!

Only then will people see the red letters on top of the thread or bother to read the rules.

 

[insight]

With everyone saying this was a "needed post"....how many times does Rod have to make this type of post before there is a change in attitudes?

I've only been here a year and this has to be at least the second or third time I've read such a heartfelt plea from the man.

Does everybody listen to the Forum's owner?

Let's call a spade a spade...it seems there are some members that ALWAYS think these requests from Rod don't pertain to them.

Plain & simple, what we have here is the occasional abuse of seniority. These folks have a good portion of the membership walking on egg shells about what they should post....and that's after they THINK, RE-THINK, and RE-THINK AGAIN what they wrote before they decide to post it. Proof of this is when I meet other members and we discuss CP while smoking a cigar....to a man, all have agreed it's BS. They either choose to ignore it or consciously stay out of it for reasons of being "selected as a target." But all agree, it's a dark cloud over what is largely a great place to hang out and meet B&SOTL.

Ask yourself this, if you were the Father of this website and a new person came here to poke around for the first time...should some of these negative threads be one of the first items they find? It's not just one or two threads, when this crap starts, some of the posters LINK to other outlandish threads as well...so one thread can become compounded with numerous negative comments of similar versions of yesteryear.

The 'baiting', hidden by clever & creative writing, has got to stop. The dismissive statements to newcomers, who ask truthful and honest questions, has got to stop. The condescending statements, to those in disagreement , has got to stop.

Last Fall/Winter we associated the negative vibes to "typical Holiday tensions"...what will we attach this one to?

As always, thanks for your patiences Rod....I hope it holds out.

That is your point of view, others see it differently.

Yet others agree with it wholeheartedly.

And yet collectively people on all sides continue to push and challenge the rules (not directed at either of you, just quoting for relevance). Lets all take some responsibility for where we stand. People got very upset about how a member (situation clearly referenced in Rod's OP) was treated recently regarding his work and participation on other boards. At the same time, Rod's edict was required to direct the product related posts by that member to the correct (retailer) forum despite NUMEROUS members suggesting he do so. It is absolutely a waste of Rod's time to have to calm down the playground squabbles and repeatedly reiterate the posted rules and precedents. Clearly Rod feels he needs some assistance with the hand holding portion of running the site and maybe he is right. Also, the use of the popcorn reference should be a floggable offense.

 

[DePasta]

Yet others agree with it wholeheartedly.

Yet others disagree with it wholeheartedly, so what is your point? I will defer to Phil's post.....

 

[ironpeddler]

Did you miss that thread peddler?

No I didn't clemmons...that's why I wrote what I wrote.

 

[BlindedByScience]

I know where you're coming from, Tony. Establishing mods is almost an admission of the defeat of the self moderated board. I'm not convinced thats a bad thing, though. Sometimes, I just want to scream "don't make me stop this car!." Some here enjoy positions of leadership, but only by respect and influence. Newbs do stupid shit that require some direction. So do (did) our kids.

On the other hand, there has to be free and open debate. Sometimes that involves screaming and shouldn't be interfered with.

My point exactly, time to stop the car and administer the ass whooping!

Only then will people see the red letters on top of the thread or bother to read the rules.

Anthony hit the nail on the head. Were it my sandbox, I'd do the following:

First serious rule violation: One week ban
Second serious rule violation: One month ban
Third serious rule violation: Permaban. Period.

Rod's decision final. No whining. No second chance. Play nice or GTFO.

Choosing moderators will be problematic. Just stomp on the bad apples and call it good.

One guy's opinion - B.B.S.

 

[SamClemmons]

Did you miss that thread peddler?

No I didn't clemmons...that's why I wrote what I wrote.

So your saying voehrc should get a vacation for an unprovoked attack... see, your post was so "creative" I missed that part.

NA

 

[insight]

I know where you're coming from, Tony. Establishing mods is almost an admission of the defeat of the self moderated board. I'm not convinced thats a bad thing, though. Sometimes, I just want to scream "don't make me stop this car!." Some here enjoy positions of leadership, but only by respect and influence. Newbs do stupid shit that require some direction. So do (did) our kids.

On the other hand, there has to be free and open debate. Sometimes that involves screaming and shouldn't be interfered with.

My point exactly, time to stop the car and administer the ass whooping!

Only then will people see the red letters on top of the thread or bother to read the rules.

Anthony hit the nail on the head. Were it my sandbox, I'd do the following:

First serious rule violation: One week ban
Second serious rule violation: One month ban
Third serious rule violation: Permaban. Period.

Rod's decision final. No whining. No second chance. Play nice or GTFO.

Choosing moderators will be problematic. Just stomp on the bad apples and call it good.

One guy's opinion - B.B.S.

Tom I agree with you completely. Similar stuff happened a couple of years ago and effectively lead to a culling of offenders which seemed to work pretty well at the time. I think Rod's concern is he doesn't always have the time to hunt down and read through all the threads to determine when one of those bans is warranted. Also there is all the little things that tend to gradually escalate into bigger deals. Like if a guy gets told he needs to post prices for something and deletes the post, or when or if someone posts in the wrong forum or asks for sources. These situations really shouldn't require Rod's attention but it seems like more and more he has to get pulled into every little thing to render a verdict. I don't know what the answer is but I can see why Rod would be very frustrated having to deal with this bs and conflicted having to police his friends.

 

[Not A Nice Person]

Were it my sandbox, I'd do the following:

First serious rule violation: One week ban
Second serious rule violation: One month ban
Third serious rule violation: Permaban. Period.

Rod's decision final. No whining. No second chance. Play nice or GTFO.

That's how I've always done it in my little sandbox on the net and it's always worked well. That particular sandbox is largely deserted and moribund the last year or two, lol, but that's because I've a history of being much too blunt and far too frequently a complete ass about things, not because of the ban policy.

FWIW, I like that this place is self-moderated, and that it largely works. Yes, there are a few FOGs who just can't let shit go, and more than a few noobs who think the rules (and general tone) of CigarPass should change to accomodate their incredible, awesome specialness, but by and large it seems like things get resolved in an adult manner around here.

Of course, that's all said w/o benefit of seeing Rob's overstuffed inbox burst into flames . . . :laugh:

~Boar

 

[BlindedByScience]

Tom I agree with you completely. Similar stuff happened a couple of years ago and effectively lead to a culling of offenders which seemed to work pretty well at the time. I think Rod's concern is he doesn't always have the time to hunt down and read through all the threads to determine when one of those bans is warranted. Also there is all the little things that tend to gradually escalate into bigger deals. Like if a guy gets told he needs to post prices for something and deletes the post, or when or if someone posts in the wrong forum or asks for sources. These situations really shouldn't require Rod's attention but it seems like more and more he has to get pulled into every little thing to render a verdict. I don't know what the answer is but I can see why Rod would be very frustrated having to deal with this bs and conflicted having to police his friends.

I think after a couple of bans the problem would largely take care of itself.

My fear is choosing mods would likely lead to issues bigger than the current ones. I'm an administrator at one of the biggest PC forums on the web (almost 120K users), and I enjoy it a lot. I have to say modding these forums would scare the crap out of me.

I'll give this some real thought.....and add to it if I have something more to add.

Regards, guys - B.B.S.

 

[moki]

Moderation in and of itself isn't an inherently bad thing. I've run a forum for 10+ years that has a team of moderators; mostly they are just doing housekeeping work. Moderation doesn't have to mean posts are censored or content is deleted (though there are times for that too... spammers, etc.).

I don't think it's admitting defeat at all; I think it's facing the reality that administrating a site like this is a lot of work. I'd rather have the site add some moderators than Rod just get burnt out and fed up with the whole thing.

One thing I would suggest is that you enlist a few people as moderators, if you decide to go this route. This will ensure that between the lot of them, things will be attended to, and it will also deflect the inevitable ire when topics are closed or other actions are taken, and someone feels slighted. They can't then focus their ire on an individual person, but rather the collective moderating team's decisions.

Believe it or not, setting up a "power structure" like this actually helps a community grow, because it keeps people in line and gives people a framework to fit into. I think it's just because people tend to do better when there is some structure and guidelines in place. And as we all know, guidelines that are never enforced just become a mockery.

I'd also suggest setting up a private forum for moderators where they can discuss various issues to reach a decision, where Rod can issue guidelines/marching orders for the moderation team, and where they can work out any conflicts they may have with each other (and there will be some) out of the public eye.

This echos a conversation I had with Rod years ago on the topic; the log of which I ironically found by searching my computer for "Barney" (for the sale price of the Bolivar BGMs).

From May 2007:

[moki] 8:20 pm: I think the BS will settle
[Rod] 8:20 pm: having a private forum goes against my views of a successful community anyways
[moki] 8:21 pm: in terms of people being mad they aren't invited, conflicts, etc.
[moki] 8:21 pm: yeah I'd tend to agree -- what we did on our forums, though
[moki] 8:21 pm: was provide a private area for moderators to discuss higher-level issues
[moki] 8:21 pm: I realize you don't have moderators, but trust me, we need them heh
[Rod] 8:21 pm: that makes sense, you're forum has moderators
[moki] 8:22 pm: anyway it ended up working out pretty well as a place for "the powers that be" to have higher level discussions without the noise
[moki] 8:22 pm: it's possible the private forum on CP may work out that way too

 

[Sportster]

....On the other hand, there has to be free and open debate. Sometimes that involves screaming and shouldn\'t be interfered with.

This is very true, people are people, even online...and when some have differences all hell can break loose, specially when that community is mostly full of fellas..in which case, tends to be loud, and rude, and sometimes even overbearing for some, in which makes an uncomfortable community and folks become more divided, not good....

I've been a member of several different sites, (not cigar sites however..) where they have an opt "in", opt "out" forum where if your the more standoffish kind and are amused by heated debates or small personall agendas they can go in there and duke it out, with out an offense to the other members who've chosen to not be a part of that forum, and allows the others to air out their shorts, so to speak...and believe it or not, this idea has been a HIT at these sites, they are mainly not moderated, however...no threats of persoanl safety is allowd and so forth, with common sense of course...and you can go as left as you want!!

Not that exact idea should be instilled here, but its an idea, and it does work in the long sight of things...

Respects...

 

[BlindedByScience]

I'd also suggest setting up a private forum for moderators where they can discuss various issues to reach a decision, where Rod can issue guidelines/marching orders for the moderation team, and where they can work out any conflicts they may have with each other (and there will be some) out of the public eye.

This is a must. If you are to have an effective moderating team, they have to be able to compare notes and receive direction (and course corrections) from Rod in confidence.

 

[souldog]

I know where you're coming from, Tony. Establishing mods is almost an admission of the defeat of the self moderated board. I'm not convinced thats a bad thing, though. Sometimes, I just want to scream "don't make me stop this car!." Some here enjoy positions of leadership, but only by respect and influence. Newbs do stupid shit that require some direction. So do (did) our kids.

On the other hand, there has to be free and open debate. Sometimes that involves screaming and shouldn't be interfered with.

I am on board with Bruce and Tony. I believe that Mods would be the end, and aren't needed. What IS needed, and I think John said it, was to punish the violators. Rules are meant to be enforced, and I haven't seen that consistently done. If we got Moderators, I don't know, too few people with too much power. I agree with a good handful of posts in here, especially Boar's and John's, but I just don't like the idea of that few people with that much power, and secret forums and all that. Enforce the rules (and I mean BBS' post of serious rule violations) and send a message, and see what happens. Stop pussyfooting and do it. I've done shit that's broken rules as well, and have been given warnings, and they helped me realize some things I was doing. It's a good thing, and if there are some that don't like getting a hand-slap, then why come here?

That's just my two cents from a newbie, so...for what it's worth. I just liked what some of the bigger dogs Tony and Bwuthie had to say.

 

[Rod]

Did you miss that thread peddler?

No I didn't clemmons...that's why I wrote what I wrote.

So your saying voehrc should get a vacation for an unprovoked attack... see, your post was so "creative" I missed that part.

NA

Neal,

verhoevc's account has been suspended for 3 days for violating rule #3 - http://www.cigarpass.com/community/forum-rules/

This issue is now a moot point. Baiting, name calling, or any other infraction of our rules will result in additional suspension/ban to either offending party.

The moderation plan is in development, and once I come up with the ground rules the team will be implemented. Again, the purpose of the team is to help with the day to day activities I simply do not have time to do anymore. It goes far beyond just managing personality conflicts. Open communication will be expected among the entire team, and content will not be deleted. Conflicts should be played out, however when name calling or unnecessary abuse occurs, the offending members will be dealt with. Moderators will have permission to accomplish certain tasks (such as moving threads to the proper forum, moving cigar passes accordingly, approving new members, running logs/reports, restarting services, etc). I will be the only person who has full admin rights. Those with power struggles will be removed from the team. No need to delve into the details any deeper. The community will run as business as usual, except for the fact that our rules will be more strictly enforced. More info to follow accordingly...