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Questionable ethics and monetary equality

D

Dave

Padilla Lanceros, yum yum!!
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
1,398
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Ok guys, this is going to be one of the few topics with actual long standing debatable components coming from all sides, and in fact might incite some form of stand off between fellow brothers.

The scenario - rhetorical, doesn't exist, but the possibility of it popping up is not null.

A reputable vendor happens to be having a sale on certain shapes of cigars, and depending on how many cigars you buy, you can get certain freebies tossed in. On the upper echelon of purchases, that is 100 total cigars, the vendor will toss in a 10 count box of VI for FREE.

Now, let's say you want to trade the VI, what methods would you use to implement the dispersal of the said product Does this 10 count box of VI have any monetary value at all based upon the price you paid for them? If they do have a value, what gives them that certain value? How would you keep things fair between yourself and all the parties involved? How did you come to formulate the suggested method(s)?

I won't be too specific for many reasons, one of them is the fact that it will sway the answers concur with my own answer to the question based on personal moral standing, and there are several different answers I came up with on how to deal with this fairly. Think outside the box and using all the information given as well as your own intuition on what the first 100 cigars cost, the difficulty in getting these cigars, if there are other people involved with the purchase as a GB, etc. Let the discussion begin.

Tip: there is no simple solution.
 
Your scenerio is very similiar to this thread : Link

( The vendor had a promotion which offered an shtray as a premium with a $1000.00 purchase. Cliff started a group buy to cover the $1000.00 purchase. )
 
When I see the word FREE I immediatly think GIFT....

Therefore there is no monetary value

On the other hand, you did spend moola in the first place to EARN those sticks....
 
I think if there's a GB involved, the group should know about the "freebie" before hand and all participants should split the "free" cigars as evenly as possible or the group should come up with a solution that is acceptable to all parties.

I think if you buy the smokes to qualify for the freebie then there's not much to go on other than MSRP. It's not like someone gifted you the cigars, they were part of a purchase deal from a vendor. That falls into a different category than a bombed smoke (personal gift) in my book.

I really have no experience in matters like this, but that's my gut feeling.
 
This one IS simple - disclose up front about the freebie and allow only 10 slots. Here's the twist - offer one of the freebie cigars to each of the slotted buyers if they put their portion of the GB up front, if they don't or can't then the freebie stick goes to the GB Host. Plain and simple.
If it's an object (hmmm I don't know maybe an ASHTRAY), similar deal: each prepay gets a raffle ticket (host should get 2 maybe for the work) and a third party should draw for the item. Honestly, if its something like an ok ashtray, whoever wins should sack up and give it to the host. Otherwise take your own damn money and buy enough cigars ON YOUR OWN to get the GIFT with purchase or HOST one yourself.
I hope this is not the way people feel about the boxes on group buys - cause I figure the person doing the buy for a group gets to decide who gets the box, especially in small buys where one person fronts the money.

that's my $5.75!
 
There is no ethical issue here in the least. You aren't asking people to help you purchase anything. If you get something for free and decide you wish to trade it then look for the lowest price from common vendors and trade or sell at that price. The only time I have seen people take exception is when people ask to do a box split or group buy just to get something of value free then try to sell or trade for something of equal or greater value.
 
I would think that if it was a group buy, then the freebies are part of the buy and all involved should share equally.

If it is a solo purchase, and you NEED to put a value on the cigars then just divide the total paid for the cigars by the number of cigars purchased, this will tell you what you paid for them, and that should be a good place to start.

Freebies are not free most of the time. Somewhere in the sale the vendor made enough money off of you to pay for what you were given. So the cost of the item/s is on the receipt somewhere.

Just one guys take....

Tim
 
I think if it's a GB than any freebies should be disclosed before hand.

If I buy a box and it comes with a free fiver I would consider that fiver part of what I ordered. That five pack of cigars was a form of incentive for me to purchase the box. So rather than me getting 20 cigars for $200 I'm getting 25 cigars for $200.

Personally I do a decent job keeping track of cost, source, and date of my cigar purchases. If I decided to sell some of the cigars from my fiver I would have no problem finding how much they cost me. I know this not the case for all BOTL's so unless I see a flagrant disregard for pricing (one week talking about a free fiver and the next selling a fiver of the same brand @MSRP) I am more than willing to give BOTL's here the benefit of the doubt (unless one has a history of selling at improper prices).

I would be interested though to see what some of the more established members here have to say.
 
Good gosh, I had to read that a few times before I could cut through the verbiage. Allow me to respond in kind.

First, if the premium (free cigars or discount) is obtained via group buy, then the premium must be appropriately disbursed to the GB participants. All participants share appropriately. If a GB is not in play then read on...

The question seems to be one but is really twofold. First, does a premium (bonus goods provided by a manufacturer) have intrinsic value. Second, under what conditions, if any, may that intrinsic value be ethically converted to exchange value in this context of this forum.

In answer to the first, I say the that of course it has intrinsic value.

In answer to the second, I say that intrinsic value may convert to exchange value via trade in passing from one member to another and that this is ethically allowable. I also say that intrinsic value passes directly from one member to another without conversion to exchange value if the transaction is gifting/bombing and that this is ethically allowable. Further, I say that sale of said premiums would be generally be considered unethical and not allowable.

That said, to lurch's point, does the fact that the awarding of these premium goods was a result of your expenditure in the first place to qualify for their awarding free the goods from ethical constraints on exchange? I am inclined to say no.

The standard, as I interpret it, is "one may not profit from fellow members" but, it also is reasonable to apply the guideline "one need not sustain a loss." Since the goods were given without cost, you may not sell them and thus directly convert a zero-expense item to real money. That is profiting. You may, however, trade them for equivalent value goods since this is neither a loss nor a gain as you are both providing and receiving intrinsic value. Bombing/gifting is neither loss nor gain as you give intrinsic value and you (or the community as an extension of self) receive goodwill.

So, if GB then share the goodies. If solo, then trade and bombing are ok. Use a single basis (i.e. agree upon a vendor as the price guide) for valuation of all traded goods.

Remember, ultimately there is no absolute rational or logical basis for ethics. Only for the application for said ethics.

Wilkey
 
I would like to propose an additional choice that can be made. Ginseng has already proposed 1)Gift and 2)Trade.

Why not sell the free item for a discounted price? If market value for the VIs is $100, sell for some price below that. Both the seller and buyer of VIs are able to benefit from this situation.


Ginseng said:
The standard, as I interpret it, is "one may not profit from fellow members" but, it also is reasonable to apply the guideline "one need not sustain a loss." Since the goods were given without cost, you may not sell them and thus directly convert a zero-expense item to real money. That is profiting. You may, however, trade them for equivalent value goods since this is neither a loss nor a gain as you are both providing and receiving intrinsic value. Bombing/gifting is neither loss nor gain as you give intrinsic value and you (or the community as an extension of self) receive goodwill.
Click to expand...
 
Great discussion here. Myself and Dave talked about his for a while trying to find the most reasonable solution from both ethical and profit/loss scenario.

I think it is fare to say that if the transaction was GB there is no question as to the fact that every good that was part of that buy is to be fairly distributed based on the each participants share of the money spent. This is a totally different debate if this was simply a sole purchase.

In everything that I say I will assume that the person's motivation here is not too make a profit of someone but simply recoup some or all of the costs for certain goods that he or she bought.


First of a question to Wilkey:

How is a trade any different from a sale. In both cases you are getting something of equal value. Money in itself is nothing but a tool to trade goods or services. So what is the difference between selling an object for say $100 or trading for a good that is worth $100.

Another question.

Using the same scenario that Dave gave. Let's say a few weeks after the purchase you want to lighten your inventory and perhaps recoup some money to purchase more cigars in the future or simply get more cigars now to have more variety. And instead of the VI you want to unload say 2 5ers of 2 other boxes that were part of that purchase. Remember you got say 4 boxes total and 10 VIs for free. So how would you figure out the value of those 5ers if the boxes are worth different amounts. ( EX. $230, $250, $310, $200 + 10 Free VIs )
 
Dave said:
Ok guys, this is going to be one of the few topics with actual long standing debatable components coming from all sides, and in fact might incite some form of stand off between fellow brothers.

The scenario - rhetorical, doesn't exist, but the possibility of it popping up is not null.

A reputable vendor happens to be having a sale on certain shapes of cigars, and depending on how many cigars you buy, you can get certain freebies tossed in. On the upper echelon of purchases, that is 100 total cigars, the vendor will toss in a 10 count box of VI for FREE.

Now, let's say you want to trade the VI, what methods would you use to implement the dispersal of the said product.
How did the other person buy or get their 'trading' products?

Does this 10 count box of VI have any monetary value at all based upon the price you paid for them? No

If they do have a value, what gives them that certain value? NA

How would you keep things fair between yourself and all the parties involved? Full disclosure.

How did you come to formulate the suggested method(s)? ....if you have to ask!

I won't be too specific for many reasons, one of them is the fact that it will sway the answers concur with my own answer to the question based on personal moral standing, and there are several different answers I came up with on how to deal with this fairly. Think outside the box and using all the information given as well as your own intuition on what the first 100 cigars cost, the difficulty in getting these cigars, if there are other people involved with the purchase as a GB, etc. Let the discussion begin.

Tip: there is no simple solution.
Click to expand...

If you have to ask!

----------------------------------------------

Also - are we talking about moral absolutism or objectivism?
 
Maybe I'm being too simple about this, but IMO:

If it's a group buy, it's right to disclose and divide the premiums among the participants, and wrong not to.

If not a GB, the 10 VIs are worth whatever the going rate for 10 VIs is in trade or $. It would be brotherly to gift them or unload them at below market value, but I see no ethical obligation to do so.
 
if you were making the purchase in full, and wanted to dispose of the freebies, then the freebies would be soley paid for by you. Therefore, you could sell them at normal cost, as you took on the liability of paying for the items that allowed you to receive the "free" smokes. They weren't really free.

However, if its a group buy, then those that partook in the responsibility of payment should be evenly distributed. That is of course, you are taking on a burden in making the purchase and others are getting a reduced burden of either legality or cost.

I would take it to the people involved, and I'm sure, some if not all would just ask you to keep the freebies for allowing them in what sounds like is still going to be a hell of a deal..

just mho
 
TugBoat said:
If I buy a box and it comes with a free fiver I would consider that fiver part of what I ordered. That five pack of cigars was a form of incentive for me to purchase the box. So rather than me getting 20 cigars for $200 I'm getting 25 cigars for $200.
Click to expand...
I like this idea. The "freebie" cost you $40 or MSRP or "best deal" available right now, whichever is lower. Trade, sell, bomb, gift, whatever.
 
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