Passes of late

[moki]

My name keeps on popping up, which is not cool by any stretch of the imagination!

If you don't like my plays tough! :angry:

I'll be taking a break for a while so don't bother me with your BS as I could care less.

Great... one of the finest members of CP is justifiably annoyed for getting crap for being too generous.

Just great. Tony... I'm behind you 100%. I'll join your picket line.

Signature updated to append:
[codebox]-- I am Tony! picket line member.[/codebox]

Seeya there, Tony.

 

[Jonesy]

The way I look at it is if it's not a newbie pass what does it matter? If you get into an established pass where the guys have been in multiple passes before, they know how to act and make their P/T's . You know that at that level, it's certainly not about "one-upmanship" and just about people's generosity in their puts. You know going into a pass whether or not you'll be able to hang and if you can't, wait for the next one. I applaud what Anthony has done. He's made available a Milli and an aged TAA set that 95% of the pass participants probably don't have and are now scrambling to find suitable puts so they may try one of their Holy Grail cigars. This to me is a selfless act of generosity because how many of you Millennium owners are putting yours up in a pass so that it may be available for someone else to try out? This is what sets Anthony apart from the pack. Now in my newbie passes, I want the guys staying close to MSRP so they can learn the basics and form a good foundation for their future passes but even staying within a dollar for a cigar that you really want may not be feasible because of what you have in your inventory. I'm certainly not going to turn down that trade because of that reason and it's not because I'm looking to upgrade the pass for when it gets back to me, it's because I want that person to be able to take a cigar they really would like to try and may not have access to. I'm certainly not saying your post doesn't have merit Matt because it does, but a trade like you've used as an example isn't the norm in passes, IMHO it was one man showing his generosity towards the rest of the participants without any ulterior motives other than sharing something that most others don't have a chance to get.


My $.02

 

[Mrepp]

Well it got here! I'll do the inventory and propose p/ts to Phil.

The inventory checks. Some very nice cigars, I'll get this sorted out by tomorrow evening the latest.

Okay Phil here are my proposed puts and takes

Take:


5. AVO LE07
6. AVO LE08

Puts:

92. 2005 Toast Across America set Opus X and DCM (This must be taken as a set)
93. Padron Millennium
94. Trinidad Ingenios EL 2007

Let me know how and I'll get this out tomorrow night.

Phil thanks for letting me play, yet again.

Anthony, let me start by saying what a generous trade this is on your part. I have no difficulty believing based on what I know about you that this was done purely as a gift to Phil.


From here on I am speaking to the community, not Anthony.

That being said, I disagree with the move. There has been a real tendency in the last year or two toward "unequal" puts. I'm not talking fifty cents here, a dollar there, but $5 plus bumps. I'm not sure where the root cause lays, generosity, too lazy to find an equal put, trying to look good or too greedy to leave a cigar behind that they do not have an appropriate put for. I have the same feeling about two, three or more extra cigars being put into a pass along with the other puts.

Whatever the cause I feel that this sets a bad precedent. Passes are an integral part of this community, and watched by FOGs, Newbs and lurkers alike. It should never be the intent of a pass, to get back better than you start with, but of late, that is simply a forgone conclusion.

If passers are feeling generous (never happens around here :whistling: ) then the old fashion Host bag is the way it should be handled. Host gifts need not be anonymous, but should be transparent in the forum. Nobody should feel obliged to add to a host bag.

We're a self policing community, and passes are policed by all the members of the pass as well as anyone in the community who sees a problem. Unequal trades in the trader's favor are quickly pointed out and corrected, but we seem to have become accustomed to allowing perhaps even expecting to see trades heavy on the put side. Shouldn't somebody be saying something in that case as well?

In the interest of full disclosure, I am guilty of all of the above. I'm recently however starting to realize that I have been swept up in a cultural movement that I do not agree with, and intend to "do better" in the future.

My opinions, for what they're worth.

I kinda agree, that is all.

 

[tsmckenney]

At first, I agreed with burtch’s post. Then I found myself agreeing with Phil. I definitely agreed with Tony, and naturally I disagreed with Jeff (but I still love him). I then enjoyed Tony’s response to Jeff (but I do still love him)... I loved the post where Jeff groveled a bit. Ah, sh.t man, I’m just kidding, but you know that.

It’s a good topic to discuss here and again, but I don’t see an issue at hand. These guys are FOGS. They’re not going to rip anybody off and it’s not often you see a FOG taken advantage of, and when that does happen.... Fire Hell Bye Bye.

Tony’s the sh.t, and I’ve never even met him, but some of the guys I smoke with have. Those guys are my brothers. So, Tony is as well. Somebody better kiss his ass and get him back on here pronto. And as far as I'm concerned, FOGS can do whatever the f..k they want. So, maybe this is more about the unwritten definition of a FOG. The rules are great, but let's face it, they're more for the young guys. That's not to say FOGS have a right to go breaking rules, because they don't anyway.

Anybody following me here...

 

[Strayvector]

Anybody following me here...

I'm joining Andrew.

 

[insight]

^^

 

[tsmckenney]

Tony’s the sh.t, and I’ve never even met him, but some of the guys I smoke with have. Those guys are my brothers. So, Tony is as well. Somebody better kiss his ass and get him back on here pronto. And as far as I'm concerned, FOGS can do whatever the f..k they want. So, maybe this is more about the unwritten definition of a FOG. The rules are great, but let's face it, they're more for the young guys. That's not to say FOGS have a right to go breaking rules, because they don't anyway.

Already there.

 

[tkoepp]

Matt.....

Hello...

Would you mind commenting on the thread that you started?

 

[Blue Dragon]

My name keeps on popping up, which is not cool by any stretch of the imagination!

If you don't like my plays tough! :angry:

I'll be taking a break for a while so don't bother me with your BS as I could care less.

Quit being a whiny little bitch! You know I love you man!

First, you ALL have a dog in this hunt, since Matt brought it to the community level to discuss. And, I think Matt's point has merit. Tony and Moki also make some good points.

I rarely take part in passes, in large part because I don't have inventory to "keep up". Were I to start one, one of my rules would definitely be puts equal takes, give or take a reasonable percentage. All my Brothers here are generous to a fault. I can't compete and it sometimes intimidates me.

This is unfortunate, and probably happens more often than not, especially w/ newer members. I am surprised to hear it from you though Bruce. There are many here who are generous, and they do it because it is their choice. Sometimes you see one-upsmanship in bombs and war games, but gifts or heavy puts in passes should a) never be expected and b) never be thought of as a competition. It is a gift, plain and simple, to the passers and pass host.

And yes, all sorts of members watch passes and what is taken/put in them. And I have seen some members look like they are trying to buy friendship by overputting in passes. But if established members see what appears to be poor put or takes, we will speak up.

The biggest thing I hope all members take from this is that overputting is NEVER expected and never some sort of one-upsmanship. We are a band of brothers and sisters that share in a passion, not a club of I'm cooler than you kids.

 

[mmburtch]

And as far as I'm concerned, FOGS can do whatever the f..k they want.

This is along the lines of what got me thinking. "The rules are the rules unless your so and so" doesn't cut it.

We ask the new guys to read more, in hopes that they will learn how things are done here. So are we welcoming them to the world of double standards? If the rules are stated "equal for equal" the plays should be.

As for comments to the effect that if you don't have the cigars to be in a pass, you shouldn't have entered it, I've been in a couple in my tenure here that started as premium passes, and ended as super premium passes. A pass participant shouldn't be expected to be prepared for the pass to have gotten out of their comfort zone simply because they are toward the end of the list.

This was never meant to be about Anthony, or Phil's pass, and if they feel it was or that it turned that way, I apologize. I used the example I did because it was an extreme example. The value was raised by nearly $100 and the rarity by whatever factor you want to use to value rarity. Whatever example I chose to use, this can be seen in nearly every pass run in the last year or so.

I'm not trying to knock generosity, simply starting a discussion as to where we are going and what examples we are setting.

 

[golfgar]

And as far as I'm concerned, FOGS can do whatever the f..k they want.

This is along the lines of what got me thinking. "The rules are the rules unless your so and so" doesn't cut it.

If a newbie had done this in a pass would that person be disallowed from the next pass or would someone say "don't play with XXXXXX because he puts in sticks that are too good"? I think not. Me thinks he would get a spot in the next pass, at the top of the list. So it is not necessarily that you are "so and so", is it.

 

[Rod]

What the hell is going on around here? This is amazing... A true BOTL (ie: Tony) who always has CP's best interest in mind is being called out for being too generous? Is this what happens when there's no drama? I can't believe this. Tony is a very good (and personal) friend of mine - he really cares about this community, and always goes above and beyond. If someone wants to give more, that's their decision. That does not set precedent for others to do the same. Every pass I have been involved in I always put more than I take, always. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The only time somoene should be called out is when they take more, return less. Equal puts for equal takes is what is expected. Going above that is at the members' discretion, and no one else's.

I really can't believe we're discussing the fact that someone goes above and beyond. Is this to say people shouldn't bomb one another? Or perhaps when you join Secret Santa, you can only give $30 and no more? I'm flabergasted by this topic.

See the general pass rules here: http://www.cigarpass.com/rules.shtml

At the bottom of the page it says:
These are just some basic rules. More may be added as necessary.
The originator of the pass may specify different rules.
Not every pass will be the same.
Have Fun!

Anthony (and anyone else who chooses to put more than they take),
I stand behind you 110%!
​

 

[sack]

Too many noobs in the pass is the problem. I'm on Anthony's picket line. :thumbs: Whose knees do we whack first?

 

[mmburtch]

From here on I am speaking to the community, not Anthony.

This was never meant to be about Anthony, or Phil's pass, and if they feel it was or that it turned that way, I apologize.

This is not about Anthony

This is about the guy who signs up for a pass full of $5-10 cigars only to have it show up at his door full of $10-20 cigars he doesn't have the means to trade for.

This is about teaching the newbs that even though you are not expected to do more than, it's a good way to get noticed.

This was intended to see where the community stood on this trend as I see it, (unless you don't want to discuss that subject, in which case you can make it about Anthony.)

 

[BigJake6904]

This is not about Anthony

This is about the guy who signs up for a pass full of $5-10 cigars only to have it show up at his door full of $10-20 cigars he doesn't have the means to trade for.

This is about teaching the newbs that even though you are not expected to do more than, it's a good way to get noticed.

This was intended to see where the community stood on this trend as I see it, (unless you don't want to discuss that subject, in which case you can make it about Anthony.)

As stated earlier in the thread, it's up to the discretion of the passer, and trends in passes based on WHO is in them can be easily noted. As Jonesy pointed out, the point...and moreso the theme, of a Newbie pass is to educate and that's pretty much it. By requiring someone to stick to a certain price in a Newbie pass....it educates them on how to look up MSRP, and become a better judge of their own P/T's. Some of us may take more time to get it :whistling: but by participating in a pass with the purpose of helping out for future passes...It improves one's judgement.

Though there may be some misunderstanding going on here...I highly doubt that a newbie, or first time passer would be in a pass full of Prems and Super Prems, primarily because the Host wouldn't feel as comfortable as they would with a long term upstanding member of the community. That's not to mention they probably couldn't trade for what's in there. What it boils down to is plain and simple....judgement.

Not Every single cigar in a pass will be insanely bumped to the point that it's impossible to trade. If it's impossible to trade...99% of the time you had no business signing up. Your fault, no one elses. A pass of 40 x $5 smokes won't end up being a pass of 40 x $15 smokes, and if it does, I highly doubt it will be in a educational pass where there is a bunch of Newbies, or first time passers.

Mountains are being made of of molehills. Regardless of the pass...P/T's as generous as we saw here don't take place often...and in no way ever seen in Newbie passes, if they were...It'd probably be turned down due to the educational nature of the pass. It all boils down to judgment. Using Phil's pass as an example...all the passers have been on CP for some time, and are all contributing members...and the pass started with a Chili Pepper, Sand Shark, BTL, Casa Fuente, 80th and any more HIGH end cigars in it...I'd say that's a decent cornerstone for one to make a judgment as to whether or not they should be in the pass....

 

[NullSmurf]

I'm disappointed that we can't discuss this, or much anything else without it getting all stupid. Go stand in your picket line. Put on your best indignant face.

 

[Rod]

From here on I am speaking to the community, not Anthony.

This was never meant to be about Anthony, or Phil's pass, and if they feel it was or that it turned that way, I apologize.

This is not about Anthony

This is about the guy who signs up for a pass full of $5-10 cigars only to have it show up at his door full of $10-20 cigars he doesn't have the means to trade for.

This is about teaching the newbs that even though you are not expected to do more than, it's a good way to get noticed.

This was intended to see where the community stood on this trend as I see it, (unless you don't want to discuss that subject, in which case you can make it about Anthony.)

With all due respect, I have never seen a pass full of $5-$10 cigars turn into a pass of only $10+/cigars. Some of you were not around when CP first started in 2000, however people have been generous with puts from early on - that's over 8 years ago. I'm failing to see where any pass has gone from a mid-range priced pass to an upper-priced pass. Giving more than you take has never been a rule, nor should it be frowned upon. Much like Secret Santa, there is a $25 set minimum; I intend to give much more than that, simply because I choose to.

Really guys, we're arguing over something that is a positive, and turning it into a negative.

 

[Marco-Polo]

Really guys, we're arguing over something that is a positive, and turning it into a negative.

Amen! Do as you would be done by is hardly a bad policy.

EDIT: Leaving this to the FOGs at present.

 

[grateful1]

Really guys, we're arguing over something that is a positive, and turning it into a negative.

Now remember, no politics!


:laugh:

 

[indyrob]

Really guys, we're arguing over something that is a positive, and turning it into a negative.

I think that CP'ers are micro-analyzing things too much lately. Chill out, have a smoke, take a piss...whatever it takes to get you to reall think about what you're about to say.