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my good friend got "the letter"

tone-ny said:
You can debate (discuss) civilly or not, I'm with AVB on this. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. It's very simplistic, but it doesn't need to be debated (discussed).
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Let me start off by saying that I have the utmost respect for Tone-ny and AVB, and acknowledge them as pillars of the our community, but I have to disagree here. Maybe I'm missing the point of this thread, but I simply do not see any downside to a discussion of this law and the consequences for breaking it. I don't think the point is not being willing to DO the time, but rather not fully comprehending WHAT that entails.

I for one consider myself a pretty damn knowledgeable smoker and yet I have very little IDEA of what the ramifications of breaking this law are. The last time I remember discussing this was Waaaaaaaaaay back on A.S.C. in like 1998 and those discussions were fraught with hearsay and speculation. I don't think a rational and civil discussion of penalties for breaking the law is anything to shy away from.

I would go as far as to say NOT discussing the penalties is more dangerous that laying out exactly what could happen if you decide to import contraband. Ignorance of the law (and its consequences) is no excuse, but it can certainly lead more easily into temptation.

The #1 pitfall that I imagine we will run across in the discussion will be the politics of the law and its enforcement, but acknowledging the minefield is the first step to avoiding it....

Creating a repository of factual information on how our government enforces the law will be a great boon to the community. And it looks like it will be in good hands with Wilkey getting things started!
 
There really isn't any discussion that needs to take place. Trading with the Enemy act is pretty cut and dry about what "COULD" happen. That's all you really need to know to make a decision to break this law or not.

You can read it here.
 
How about a sticky with links?

Here's a good one to go with AVB's post: Prohibitions on Cuban Cigars



The laws are pretty cut and dry. Seems to me if you only get a letter, you should consider yourself lucky, it could be much worse. :0
 
Cuppajack,

You've made some good points, however, I will let you know that discussion of the politics relating to the law will not be allowed in the coming thread. This has proven to be a tangential issue that has only served to inflame the discourse.

I will second the respect for AVB and Anthony and add that discussion and disagreement are good for this or any community and its members. History here proves that. It is my most fervent hope that this discussion will continue that tradition. I'll look to Rod, the members, and history to decide whether this is the case.

In that spirit, I'll further add that while the law may be fairly explicit, the issues of personal conscience and decisionmaking regarding this law are anything but cut and dry. The governmental response to breaches of the law at the individual level have changed. Of this there is no doubt. The discussion is already taking place at several other sites. It is my intention to learn from what has already transpired and use that to help the membership here be at least as informed about this issue as members of these other sites.

Wilkey
 
If you get the letter your okay,Just throw it away. When the package takes over a day to clear customs that's when you are either going to get a letter or a visit! Also, if you do get a letter your addy is probably flagged, and anything else coming from over seas will get an extra look. BTW, i'm against any illegal activity.

Edit to add: The "visit" is when they wait for you to sign or pick up the pack and then arrest you.
 
While this doesn't further the discussion I do have a question as to whom this "good friend" is and why isn't he a member here asking his own questions? It's not like you don't know the URL to give him ;)
 
jeht2000 said:
If you get the letter your okay,Just throw it away. When the package takes over a day to clear customs that's when you are either going to get a letter or a visit! Also, if you do get a letter your addy is probably flagged, and anything else coming from over seas will get an extra look. BTW, i'm against any illegal activity.

Edit to add: The "visit" is when they wait for you to sign or pick up the pack and then arrest you.
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Truthfully, I don't mind if it is discussed either way, however, I tend to think that there isn't much to be discussed. As mentioned previously, the law is cut and dry as to what "could" happen. For the most part, everyone knows the law and the possible consequences. We all know that there are instances of people getting a "letter." Everything beyond that is anecdotal (see quoted post...not picking on you jeht.) The entire discussion will likely turn into pure speculation. This is the part that is not neccessary. The only information will be "I heard of a guy who knows a woman who's brother-in-law twice removed got the letter and he did X...Y...Z, and then the Fed's proceded to...." ad nauseum. To me, this is no more useful than what I could conjure up in my own imagination. I am betting all that this will do is be a thread for constant hearsay (sp?) and a place for newbies to come and try and put all the unfounded information together in an effort to ease their conscience about buying contraband, and/or figure out a way to "beat" the system.

Unless some respected member has had some concrete consequences put upon them and would like to share that info, I don't see this type of thread being all that useful/informative. I could be wrong, but I agree with the sentiment that all that needs to be said, for the most part, is written in the law. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if any other solid info is somewhere in the knowledge base of this community, it would have come out by now, regardless of whether or not there is a thread dedicated to the topic.

I am not passing judgement on anyone who purchases these types of products, but anyone with half a brain knows that there is at least some potential for negative consequences coming your way if you partake in these types of transactions.

I guess we'll see how it plays out.

:thumbs:
 
My only intent was to see if anyone had any experience or heard anything in regards to this letter. I apologize if the content of my post made anyone uncomfortable. As a memeber i believe I have had good experiences thus far with any members i bought or traded with and look forward to future good experiences...peace and love
 
Rod said:
I've put a lot of thought into this, and I have decided to allow an open discussion thread dedicated to the legality of purchasing Cuban cigars. There is absolutely nothing wrong with allowing civil discussion about US Law and the ramifications of purchasing contraband. The thread may be referenced for educational purposes only.

We have had, and still have, a rule in place which prohibits the sale of Cuban cigars in the the trading forum. As long as there is an embargo, we will continue to enforce this rule. CigarPass does not promote any illegal activity. The discussion of Custom's letters, US Law, etc is legal, and will be allowed in one thread.

If someone chooses to post a letter they personally received, then so be it. Custom's is already aware of that person's illegal activity, since they sent them the letter, there is nothing to hide. I would suggest blacking out any personal information if you do decide to post such material.

Again, this thread is for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. We are not a place to help you break the law, or help you acquire illegal merchandise. There are a lot of people out there who are 1.) Curious about the letters, and want to learn more about the current situation. 2.) Have received letters from Custom's and are seeking help on how to respond.

Bottom line: Buying Cuban Cigars is illegal, and WE ADVISE YOU DO NOT DO THIS.

As long as it is done all in one thread, then I see nothing wrong with it.
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Thanks for chiming in on this, Rod... It's important to our board for us to have guidance on these "sensitive" issues...



Wurm said:
I don't really see a problem with posting a lawyer's advice regarding "the letter" George. It isn't telling anyone how to circumvent the law, and is only applicable for someone who has "gotten burned".

As far as the rest of your post, good and very true stuff there! :thumbs:
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My view on this, Shawn - and something you need to consider - you personally are tacitly approving (by posting what you've posted) of what one PERSON is advising about how to address that letter. I don't know if you personally know who posted that advice, but you sure are banking your own credibility on what was said. Is the guy a lawyer? If so, is he one that practices federal law and is familiar with defending cases involving the "Trading with the Enemy Act"?



If someone here were to take that advice (because it seems bo be pretty reasonable) I'm sure they would be looking to you to help them out if that strategy failed. I seriously wonder what your response would be if all hell broke loose for the guy (I suspect it would be along the lines of :blush: ).



I have to be honest - if I was investigating that case (as I have done in similar kinds of circumstances) and received a response like that - what would follow most would consider PURE HELL (remember, they already have confiscated goods that are considered by Federal law to be contraband). Seems to me like that would be ripe for the issuance of a search warrant... (if you've never been the subject of a search warrant - I'll clue you in - it ain't pretty) :whistling:



Seriously, Shawn - and I'm sincere in asking this - under similar circumstances is that how YOU would personally respond to that letter? It's one thing to opine what sounds reasonable, and quite another to do what is right. I personally think our friend needs to seek the advice of someone versed in that specific area of the law. And that attorney needs to regularly practice on the Federal level. That advice would be useful - not what a bunch of "butchers" and "bakers" think should be done... ;)
 
ggiese said:
Rod said:
I've put a lot of thought into this, and I have decided to allow an open discussion thread dedicated to the legality of purchasing Cuban cigars. There is absolutely nothing wrong with allowing civil discussion about US Law and the ramifications of purchasing contraband. The thread may be referenced for educational purposes only.

We have had, and still have, a rule in place which prohibits the sale of Cuban cigars in the the trading forum. As long as there is an embargo, we will continue to enforce this rule. Cigar Pass does not promote any illegal activity. The discussion of Custom's letters, US Law, etc is legal, and will be allowed in one thread.

If someone chooses to post a letter they personally received, then so be it. Custom's is already aware of that person's illegal activity, since they sent them the letter, there is nothing to hide. I would suggest blacking out any personal information if you do decide to post such material.

Again, this thread is for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. We are not a place to help you break the law, or help you acquire illegal merchandise. There are a lot of people out there who are 1.) Curious about the letters, and want to learn more about the current situation. 2.) Have received letters from Custom's and are seeking help on how to respond.

Bottom line: Buying Cuban Cigars is illegal, and WE ADVISE YOU DO NOT DO THIS.

As long as it is done all in one thread, then I see nothing wrong with it.
Click to expand...



Thanks for chiming in on this, Rod... It's important to our board for us to have guidance on these "sensitive" issues...



Wurm said:
I don't really see a problem with posting a lawyer's advice regarding "the letter" George. It isn't telling anyone how to circumvent the law, and is only applicable for someone who has "gotten burned".

As far as the rest of your post, good and very true stuff there! :thumbs:
Click to expand...



My view on this, Shawn - and something you need to consider - you personally are tacitly approving (by posting what you've posted) of what one PERSON is advising about how to address that letter. I don't know if you personally know who posted that advice, but you sure are banking your own credibility on what was said. Is the guy a lawyer? If so, is he one that practices federal law and is familiar with defending cases involving the "Trading with the Enemy Act"?



If someone here were to take that advice (because it seems to be pretty reasonable) I'm sure they would be looking to you to help them out if that strategy failed. I seriously wonder what your response would be if all hell broke loose for the guy (I suspect it would be along the lines of :blush: ).



I have to be honest - if I was investigating that case (as I have done in similar kinds of circumstances) and received a response like that - what would follow most would consider PURE HELL (remember, they already have confiscated goods that are considered by Federal law to be contraband). Seems to me like that would be ripe for the issuance of a search warrant... (if you've never been the subject of a search warrant - I'll clue you in - it ain't pretty) :whistling:



Seriously, Shawn - and I'm sincere in asking this - under similar circumstances is that how YOU would personally respond to that letter? It's one thing to opine what sounds reasonable, and quite another to do what is right. I personally think our friend needs to seek the advice of someone versed in that specific area of the law. And that attorney needs to regularly practice on the Federal level. That advice would be useful - not what a bunch of "butchers" and "bakers" think should be done... ;)
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To be totally honest, I have no idea how I would respond to such a letter. In my opinion the guy is already burned and no matter what he does, he broke the law and he is going to suffer for it.

BTW I have been the subject of more than one "search warrant" while in the military (they call them health and welfares and they are random, unlike civilian search-warrants which must be based on probable cause). And I agree that for the subject it is very unpleasant.

And in no way do I agree that my post has any lien on my credibility, I threw out some info from another board from a lawyer who has dealt with this exact thing before. Using such advice is always a gamble, because the end results are dependent on the officials involved. What one official will let slide, another will ask 20 years to life for. It always comes down to the human factor in such things.

Also anything posted on the Internet needs to be examined and be taken for what it is, with a grain of salt.

People who can't figure that out have no business posting on a Internet forum to begin with.

Shawn
 
bchem, what i wrote..i KNOW and i'm sure would be very useful to somebody. I'm sure not everyone knows about getting their addy flagged.Not arguing, just saying. And the part about getting a visit, there was more to it i just erased it because i didn't want to say too much. But i'm sure a good number of people here have no idea how the whole situation could play out. Also, it was meant as more of a reality chk. I'm sure there are people that get so wrapped up in ordering they forget about the possible out come.
 
As a "Fuggin Newbler", I find this thread very useful. While one may know of the legalities involved, we live in a authoritarian society with it's typically inconsistent enforcement practices. For example, pot is practically legal in many cities but can have extremely dire consequences just over the city line. So how and to what extent prohibition laws are enforced is of interest to the average "newbler" consumer like me.
 
vortex said:
As a "Fuggin Newbler", I find this thread very useful. While one may know of the legalities involved, we live in a authoritarian society with it's typically inconsistent enforcement practices. For example, pot is practically legal in many cities but can have extremely dire consequences just over the city line. So how and to what extent prohibition laws are enforced is of interest to the average "newbler" consumer like me.
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An excellent point, and one that I tried and failed to make in my post above.

I'd be interested to hear the worst-case scenario that has occurred to some unlucky "importer" just for the anecdotal value of the story... So feel free to PM me with your "My buddies neighbor's house got stormed by coastguard agents with laser gun" stories.
 
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