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Mitchell Report

alexgtp said:
bfreebern said:
alexgtp said:
bfreebern said:
Wow, these stuck out in my mind:

Nomar Garciaparra
Mark Prior
Kerry Wood
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Hmm.. they started to get injures once they were off the juice.. ???
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Yeah, I should have put a sarcasm meter by my post.
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I thought you were playing the CUBS angle.. :sign:
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LOL, not yet. Pretty evident when someone goes along w/ their career and is never hurt. Then has a standout year and then gets hurt over and over again. I did hear that Wood wasn't listed on the actual report.
 
I'm glad they came out with the report. It goes to prove what I've been saying all along, that B. Bonds isn't the only one on the juice. Now, it will be impossible to single him out and pick on him. Make it seem like he was and is nothing without it.

Here's my example for the day:

Let's take track and field. I would bet the house that well over half the athletes at the Olympics use/used steriods. And I will further stick my neck out and say that ALL of the top 5 in ANY event(still track and field) use steriods. Now what seperates these guys and gals at this level? It's not the jucie, hell they are all on it. It's natural talent and hard work!!!!!!! Its the same in bodybuilding. It's not the guy taking the most stuff that wins, its the one who worked the hardest and has the best genetics. Not always, of course, but most of the time.

So my point is that B. Bonds could have been clean all his life and he still would be at the top of the home run list. People try to make excuses and the media will put a spin on it but what it all comes down to is TALENT! Marion Jones, same thing. She was talented waaaay before she ever took anything. If everyone was clean, she probably still would be the fastest woman.

Like I said, I'm happy this has come out because now they can't just focus on B. Bonds and act like no one else is on steriods.
 
jeht2000 said:
Like I said, I'm happy this has come out because now they can't just focus on B. Bonds and act like no one else is on steriods.
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I think if he wasn't such a dickhead, people would be acting differently towards him.
 
jeht2000 said:
I'm glad they came out with the report. It goes to prove what I've been saying all along, that B. Bonds isn't the only one on the juice. Now, it will be impossible to single him out and pick on him. Make it seem like he was and is nothing without it.

Here's my example for the day:

Let's take track and field. I would bet the house that well over half the athletes at the Olympics use/used steriods. And I will further stick my neck out and say that ALL of the top 5 in ANY event use steriods. Now what seperates these guys and gals at this level? It's not the jucie, hell they are all on it. It's natural talent and hard work!!!!!!! Its the same in bodybuilding. It's not the guy taking the most stuff that wins, its the one who worked the hardest and has the best genetics. Not always, of course, but most of the time.
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Even the ping pong players?! Say it isn't so!!!
So my point is that B. Bonds could have been clean all his life and he still would be at the top of the home run list. People try to make excuses and the media will put a spin on it but what it all comes down to is TALENT! Marion Jones, same thing. She was talented waaaay before she ever took anything. If everyone was clean, she probably still would be the fastest woman.

Like I said, I'm happy this has come out because now they can't just focus on B. Bonds and act like no one else is on steriods.
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I'm not so sure about this. Bonds hit 388 HRs after 1998 (when he allegedly began using). That's more than half of his total HR production. I'm not really sure he could have put up those numbers without the help. I'm not talking turning warning track power into over the fence power, I'm talking about his ability to train as hard or harder and recover much as fast or faster as he did when younger after having reached an age when most players start to slow down. He was always an outstanding player (and it's a shame his legacy as a player will be tainted by his alleged steroid use), but how long could he have kept that up had he not had some "assistance?"

He was an a-hole before, he's an a-hole now, and will always be an a-hole. He's certainly not the only one that used (as most people have known for years), but when your on top of the heap, you're always going to garner much more attention.
 
I completely agree LilBastage. I'm not a Bonds fan, in fact I find the guy dispicable. But he was almost certainly headed towards Cooperstown before he (alledgedly) started the juice. He was easily one of the top 5 players of his era but that wasn't enough for him. The only reason I hold him more contemptable than others on the list is that he broke a record of a man that got his the honest way. You'd be hard pressed to find a better man than Hank Aaron and I think it's a shame that his name will not appear at the top of that list anymore. For the record, if McGuire had broken Aaron's record by using steroids (legal or not) I would feel the same about him. I still consider Roger Maris the single season record holder and always will until someone breaks it legitimately.
 
lilb, steriods are not going to help your longevity in ANY sport! Quote me, or whatever you like I know my stuff! If anything, it's going to shorten your career. Look up or do a google on steriods and muscles or more specifically, tendons. They break your body down over time(anybody remember Michael Johnson, or M. Green). I believe that as time went by it was a combination of training, and nutrition that kept him on top. At his level you have alot of things at your finger tips to keep you healthy. Trainer, dieticians, massage therapist, and so on. There are alot of athletes that got better as they got further into there career. Look how long Jerry Rice was catching touchdowns. It was because he was said to stay in shape year round and work hard. His hard work seperated him from the others BUT, if the media found out today that he was on steriods they would say(or suggest) that it was the juice they made him great! And don't forget Michael Jordan, he became a legend at the end of his career(before he first retired) thru hard work and knowlege of the game.

Also lilb, I edited my above post for your ping pong question.

Moe, you don't know the guy why do you find him dispicable? Is it because of what you have seen on tv? Be careful of what the media shows you.
 
Actually, I see what your saying moe. But, I do have one question do the other athletes get a pass in your eyes because they haven't accomplished what he has( ala Mark Mcquire, and so on)? I think that if he is wrong or you hate him for cheating than you should hate all of them! Not just him because he was good enought to break some records.

QUESTION: How many people do you think would rub some cream on their arm or take a shot in the ass if they could be the best there ever was in whatever they do, make millions, and be known and loved by millions? My guess, damn near everybody!
 
I'm surprised Sammy Sosa and Mark McQuire didn't make the list. But it makes no differennce to me, they all are professional players, not Olympic or College players. Let them take whatever they want, just like wrestlings. Then we can all enjoy watching the best freak win it all. Rome couldn't outdo that! :(
 
jeht2000 said:
Actually, I see what your saying moe. But, I do have one question do the other athletes get a pass in your eyes because they haven't accomplished what he has( ala Mark Mcquire, and so on)? I think that if he is wrong or you hate him for cheating than you should hate all of them! Not just him because he was good enought to break some records.

QUESTION: How many people do you think would rub some cream on their arm or take a shot in the ass if they could be the best there ever was in whatever they do, make millions, and be known and loved by millions? My guess, damn near everybody!
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I honestly don't hate anyone, but you're right. I'm basing my opinion on what I've read and seen and maybe that isn't the best way to form an opinion. And to answer your question, no. The others on that list don't get a free pass. They are all, along with the owners and commisioner, responsible from driving me away from MLB. I'm in love with the game of baseball. Always have been and always will be. But I haven't sat through an entire major league game since 1997 when I saw McGuire's first home run for the Cardinals in Busch Stadium. What MLB has produced is not baseball in my eyes, it's more akin to beer league softball. I'm a baseball purist and simply don't care for what the game has evolved into. I was really tempted by the small ball the White Sox won with a couple of years ago, but I'm afraid that was a flash in the pan.
 
Interesting story about Nomar Garciaparra....

Before he was all beefed up, he was originally a scrawny ball player. In need of some serious muscle development, he approached a well known trainer with a radical new approach to resistance training now commonly known as DC (Dogg Crapp). After about 18 months on this radical new program, he beefed up into who he is now, and he attributes all his muscular gains from his time spent with Dante (the trainer's name).

Now I wonder how this is going to affect the credibility of personal trainers, especially those with such a great resume such as Dante, Charles Glass, and others.

On a side note... I find it interesting how Barry Bonds will probably go to jail for perjury rather than substance abuse. I wonder how many on that list will even see a court room for trial on charges of substance abuse.


Another name you guys might want to look up if you haven't already is Patrick Arnold, the chemist who made "the clear", presumably the chemical substance Barry Bonds used.

On another side note, I'm more surprised this probe didn't start soon like the late 80's when Keith Hernandez admitted he and his team mates were all high on coke. As a plus though, I don't see Julio Franco on the list, but then again, that doesn't mean that those who aren't on the list aren't using.
 
Dave said:
Interesting story about Nomar Garciaparra....

Before he was all beefed up, he was originally a scrawny ball player. In need of some serious muscle development, he approached a well known trainer with a radical new approach to resistance training now commonly known as DC (Dogg Crapp). After about 18 months on this radical new program, he beefed up into who he is now, and he attributes all his muscular gains from his time spent with Dante (the trainer's name).

Now I wonder how this is going to affect the credibility of personal trainers, especially those with such a great resume such as Dante, Charles Glass, and others.

On a side note... I find it interesting how Barry Bonds will probably go to jail for perjury rather than substance abuse. I wonder how many on that list will even see a court room for trial on charges of substance abuse.


Another name you guys might want to look up if you haven't already is Patrick Arnold, the chemist who made "the clear", presumably the chemical substance Barry Bonds used.

On another side note, I'm more surprised this probe didn't start soon like the late 80's when Keith Hernandez admitted he and his team mates were all high on coke. As a plus though, I don't see Julio Franco on the list, but then again, that doesn't mean that those who aren't on the list aren't using.
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Good point Dave. I can't believe Sosa wasn't on the list. The list is a curious mix. Some of those names I've never heard of which leads to the obvious question: What the hell were you thinking? Doing an illegal substance to obtain mediocrity? Good job!!! :rolleyes:
 
jeht2000 said:
lilb, steriods are not going to help your longevity in ANY sport! Quote me, or whatever you like I know my stuff! If anything, it's going to shorten your career. Look up or do a google on steriods and muscles or more specifically, tendons. They break your body down over time(anybody remember Michael Johnson, or M. Green). I believe that as time went by it was a combination of training, and nutrition that kept him on top. At his level you have alot of things at your finger tips to keep you healthy. Trainer, dieticians, massage therapist, and so on. There are alot of athletes that got better as they got further into there career. Look how long Jerry Rice was catching touchdowns. It was because he was said to stay in shape year round and work hard. His hard work seperated him from the others BUT, if the media found out today that he was on steriods they would say(or suggest) that it was the juice they made him great! And don't forget Michael Jordan, he became a legend at the end of his career(before he first retired) thru hard work and knowlege of the game.

Also lilb, I edited my above post for your ping pong question.

Moe, you don't know the guy why do you find him dispicable? Is it because of what you have seen on tv? Be careful of what the media shows you.
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Perhaps that's why Bonds' body has finally given out? Only one signifiacnt injury from 1986-1999, since 1999 he saw TENDON damage in his wrist and multiple knee surgeries.

Jerry Rice never underwent a dramatic change in body type. He's been a lean man for his entire career and he performed well for all those years with outstanding hall of fame talent at the QB position. After 1996 he never had a double digit TD year or another year with over 100 catches. His numbers declined as he got older and as he moved into situations that didn't involve great QBs.

Michael Jordan was on his way to legendary status well before the end of his career. It was the addition of talent in Chicago that put those teams over the top and helped him cement his legend. He was already a legend in the game of basketball based on his accomplishments at NC.

You may know a lot about steroids and I'm not arguing with you or trying to prove you wrong. I'm just stating the way I feel about the situation. I don't hate Bonds (even though he is an a-hole), but I absolutely despise the fact that he, McGwire, Sosa, and all these other cheaters have put a cloud over a game I have loved my entire life. They took a road that they shouldn't have and it was wrong. There's no way to say it was right. Saying that anybody would do it to get the money and fortune doesn't make it right, especially when you're talking about an athlete (Bonds) that already had all the fame, accolades, and money he deserved as one of the top 5 players of all time BEFORE he (allegedly) started using performance enhancing illegal drugs.
 
lilb, that might be the reason for his injuries. As far as J. Rice, I wasn't saying he used steriods, I was commenting on his longevity in the sport. And every wide reciever preforms better with a big time QB. Randy Moss anybody.

And as far as M. Jordan, if you think he was ANYWHERE near greatness at carolina or when he first came out our converstation should be over. Jordan is the greatest based on what he did at the end of his career. Yes his supporting cast helped him get into the record books but we are not talking about the Chicago bulls we are talking about him and his proformance.

And I definitely don't want you to think that I am excusing these people cheating BUT, I understand! People degrade themselves on tv(reality shows)everyday just for 15minutes of fame and pennies in their pocket. Do you really believe that people wouldn't rub a cream on their arm for ten to twenty million dollars A YEAR?! Then add in the fame, then the title of the greatest. I'm not saying that you would do it, but most would.
 
jeht2000 said:
lilb, that might be the reason for his injuries. As far as J. Rice, I wasn't saying he used steriods, I was commenting on his longevity in the sport. And every wide reciever preforms better with a big time QB. Randy Moss anybody.

And as far as M. Jordan, if you think he was ANYWHERE near greatness at carolina or when he first came out our converstation should be over. Jordan is the greatest based on what he did at the end of his career. Yes his supporting cast helped him get into the record books but we are not talking about the Chicago bulls we are talking about him and his proformance.

And I definitely don't want you to think that I am excusing these people cheating BUT, I understand! People degrade themselves on tv(reality shows)everyday just for 15minutes of fame and pennies in their pocket. Do you really believe that people wouldn't rub a cream on their arm for ten to twenty million dollars A YEAR?! Then add in the fame, then the title of the greatest. I'm not saying that you would do it, but most would.
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This really has nothing to do with Jordan, but he was great from his rookie year until his first retirement. He was a legend in COLLEGE basketball based on his achievements at NC. He was the best player in the NBA as soon as he entered the NBA and held that title until he retired. He was the best ever after he won his 1st championship (some would argue even before that) until someone else takes that title. He led the league in scoring and points every year from his 2nd year (1986-87) until 1998.

As he aged after that, his production went down. The same thing with Jerry Rice. As their production went down, Bonds' skyrocketed. They're all about the same age. There has to be some sort of explanation for Bonds' doubling his career HR stats after these other two legends of the same age group had been long past their prime performance years. I really can't believe that Barry Bonds was more driven to succeed than Michael Jordan and Jerry Rice and simply out worked them.

I understand how the lure of money drives some people into cheating and compromising their bodies. It doesn't relieve the disgust I have for those people. Especially, as I said before, a person like Barry Bonds who was a multi-millionaire, a sure-fire HOFer, and one of the top 5 players of all time in 1997. It's the jealousy and envy he felt as Sosa and McGwire "saved" :rolleyes: baseball with their HR chase that led him to (allegedly) start using whatever it was he was using. That's the mark of a despicable human being and I don't understand how anybody can defend that.

I don't think most people would sacrifice their principles like that. A lot of people may, but I don't think most. I may be wrong. If I am, then this culture is in a sad state of affairs and I truly fear for the future.

That's really all I have to say about it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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