Man... This looks just like the Aristocrat

[badwhale]

I also don't go to the Guggenheim to admire the cabinetry holding the articles on display.

I'm not saying anything bad about Bob's humidors. I'm sure they're well built. All I'm saying is that I think there's an element of economy when MDF is used and I'm just not buying what I consider the marketing strategy of saying it's engineered for the application.

MDF has only been on the market since maybe the 80s...Why was it created? Because people were having little success building humidors and museum display cases prior out of solid wood or veneered wood?

Will

Your cynicism is showing. I would politely suggest you do a little more research into MDF. For folks that understand woodworking, it's often the preferred material in high humidity environments for dimensional stability. You know, so the door shuts and seals for a long time...?? As Gary pointed out, MDF isn't like the cheap particle board that is used in cheap imported furniture. You are saying bad things about Bob's humidors when you dismiss his choice of materials as "marketing". You are making the assumption that the high density MDF that's used by him is somehow cheaper than solid wood. Depending on the solid wood, that may or may not be true.

You should give Bob a call and chat with him about why he uses what he does. If you knew the technical background that he comes from, and if you actually took the time to get some facts, you might be surprised. That is, if you really want to understand the issues here.

B.B.S.

Cynicism started on post 12 and was really more "skeptical."

He uses solid wood for the doors & lids, if that indicates anything.

Follow me here. MDF is a manufactured man-made material. In contrast, solid wood is natural and must be prepared prior to joinery and finishing.

For example, if you have a 12" deep humidor carcass, made of wild cherry, you must rip a 12" piece, or join 2 6" pieces to release any inherent instability in the wood. MDF, you could just use a 12" piece. Cost savings.

For example, in order to rip or prepare your piece(s) of cherry, you must joiner the edges, and biscuit / tongue-groove them together. MDF, you just use a 12" piece. Cost savings.

For example, in order to get a nominal carcass thickness of 3/4", you need to plane your joined / jointed cherry. MDF, you just use a 3/4" piece. Cost savings

After all that, you're about at square one to construct your carcass for either example. Granted the MDF still requires veneer for a "pretty" look where the solid wood doesn't, but then again, you don't necessarily have to stain / finish the veneer, so let's just call the finishing process a wash (although I didn't mention the umpteen levels of sanding to get your solid wood there. So probably cost savings.)

My point is, the main reason for using MDF is economy in materials / preparation. The joinery if good, either example should be pretty much equal. Dimensional stability of MDF is a by-product. Spinning dimensional stability as the main reason for use is marketing, just like making it ambiguous as to what your construction methods are on the main page of a website. Maybe to dispel the stigma MDF has to particleboard??? possible, but another marketing technique nonetheless.

Sitting side by side, crafted by an accomplished wood worker, both examples should perform equally well and look wonderful.

IMHO, I prefer the solid wood version, drawn from a piece of nature, by a master carpenter.

Will

 

[MadMonk]

Staebell does not use solids for the door panel. For a raised panel door, He oversizes the solid hardwood door frame, then he uses nc cutter to form the raised panel effect. The Panel scallop is actually part of the hardwood frame, not the panel. It ends at where scallop meets the flat portion edge of the panel. Highly precise seam, but noticeable if you look. Take off a hinge, and it's cut-out will reveal the mdf. Staebell is a highly intelligent perfectionist. I would put my money on his product. I am also highly skilled at cabinet making, but unfortunately have several physical limitations. Hardwood, and worry about it warping, constantly, no thanks. Especially in a humid climate. In addition, Old growth hardwoods are more stable than what is available these days. Buying enough to build a cabinet would cost a fortune. Practicality trumps in this case. where 90% of customers are not rich.

 

[badwhale]

God, I'm not saying he's doing anything wrong. Where's my facepalm smiley? I just totally disagree that solid hardwood poses such a problem, and I prefer them.

I have a humidor made of solid wild cherry for 5years+ now. It was not a "fortune." It was actually less expensive than a similar aristocrat model. No problems except keeping it filled.

Will

 

[badwhale]

badwhale,

if you mean hardwood as in an Arlinn Liss type box, I don't know the cost comparison. While I love Arlinn's work, I did not want to take a chance with solid hardwoods and humidity.
I suspect, cost per cubic foot is higher. If you mean Staebell using hardwood, as far as I know, he does not use any in the main panels of the box. My understanding is trim, door frames, molding, etc are solid, and he uses some very clever joining techniques to "fuse" the two together.

Also, here you say the door frames are "solid"

I had to dig around on the site to find where he makes a "sandwich" lid for desktops. My bad.

Will

 

[MadMonk]

The fortune I associated with these would be the old growth wood. I have several hardwood humidors. No problems. I don't mean to imply that warping is a definite. Just stating that the risk
factor is higher. But, this got me thinking. Arlin's humidors seem to be roughly 4 times more money. Definitely more attractive. I just don't see anything on his site concerning warranty against warpage. Something to ask him.

The purpose of my posts is to educate the op that mdf is a reasonable option, and nothing to be AFRAID of. Your posts are fine, and just give an opinion, as do mine. I did feel it necessary, for the sake of accuracy, and for the hundred of web searchers who will eventually find this thread via Google, to clarify. Please don't use the dreaded facepalm smiley! My main point is that the risk is higher, and if a person wants to spend the amounts of money for hardwood over mdf, then they must understand that the risk is genuine. They also better buy from a craftsman who is well versed in joinery (including adhesives), grain orientation, finishing (very critical in application), etc. And, he damn well better have a solid warranty.

My mom had a friend, in Florida, who was trying to save money She kept a window unit downstairs in her family room, and one in her bedroom. She left the air off in the rest of the house. All of her dining room, and livingroom furniture (Major Name Brand) was ruined. Warped doors, Drawers falling apart, Joints failing, etc. Expensive lesson.

 

[ironpeddler]

Particle board is a far cry from MDF. Of the woodworkers I know, there is no stigma towards it at all, it's the product of choice when building certain pieces.

Structurally speaking, you can't use a better product for what we're talking about. Go to the wood shop of any museum (Smithsonian, MoMA, Guggenheim, etc) and see what they use to make display cases and platforms that will hold priceless artifacts...very high density MDF covered with a veneer of some sort.

When I picked him to buy from, my first concern was strength and durability. I figured anyone could stain some wood and dress it up, but whoever made a better technically designed humidor would get my money...and Bob makes a great one. I imagine I'll pass mine on to my son and hopefully some day he'll pass it on to his. :thumbs:

I also don't go to the Guggenheim to admire the cabinetry holding the articles on display.

Will

Will, what you mean by that statement has me confused....but it sounds like you're a bit frustrated and think that we're saying you're wrong about something. By no means is Dan or myself saying that...we're just voicing our opinions just as you are voicing yours.

I guess if you extrapolate from my comment about the product being used to hold expensive items in a museum, I meant...they use MDF to support these priceless objects in controlled environments. Many times these bases are built and the art is placed on it...it's then encased in glass with the correct temp & humidity piped in to preserve it's integrity during the time it's on display...which most of the time is higher than the ambient humidity. That being said, they're confidence level is high in that the product to not swell or warp over time...all of which relates to a humidor's construction and life span. That was my point.

When I shop for certain types of furniture, I look solid wood construction all the way and I'm willing to pay for that option. But when it came to shopping for a piece of furniture that would hold a wet environment over many, many years...I opted to go with a newer technology that will insure it's long term seal and shape and by no means did I look at it as a cost saving, more of a technical advantage. I too have been a long time woodworker and was a contractor for quite some time, any thin slab (2" and under) of hardwood, no matter how well it's prepared, treated and joined, will warp over time when the humidity levels are over 50% on average. I guess my insight is based on my experiences of building on or near the water (the New Jersey Shore) since the 70s. Almost every aspect of construction in a house is performed differently in that environment...I just applied some of that to my humidor buying criteria. Whether it was applied correctly, I don't know...but it was how I approached it.

You say potato, I say potahto....

 

[BlindedByScience]

You say potato, I say potahto....

....it's "potatoe" you hack....

 

[ironpeddler]

You say potato, I say potahto....

....it's "potatoe" you hack....

Oh sh*t...I had a Dan Quayle moment!

Thanks Tom...

 

[MadMonk]

It's matatoe, damn it!

 

[Backslide]

camel toe?

 

[badwhale]

Particle board is a far cry from MDF. Of the woodworkers I know, there is no stigma towards it at all, it's the product of choice when building certain pieces.

Structurally speaking, you can't use a better product for what we're talking about. Go to the wood shop of any museum (Smithsonian, MoMA, Guggenheim, etc) and see what they use to make display cases and platforms that will hold priceless artifacts...very high density MDF covered with a veneer of some sort.

When I picked him to buy from, my first concern was strength and durability. I figured anyone could stain some wood and dress it up, but whoever made a better technically designed humidor would get my money...and Bob makes a great one. I imagine I'll pass mine on to my son and hopefully some day he'll pass it on to his. :thumbs:

I also don't go to the Guggenheim to admire the cabinetry holding the articles on display.

Will

Will, what you mean by that statement has me confused....but it sounds like you're a bit frustrated and think that we're saying you're wrong about something. By no means is Dan or myself saying that...we're just voicing our opinions just as you are voicing yours.

I guess if you extrapolate from my comment about the product being used to hold expensive items in a museum, I meant...they use MDF to support these priceless objects in controlled environments. Many times these bases are built and the art is placed on it...it's then encased in glass with the correct temp & humidity piped in to preserve it's integrity during the time it's on display...which most of the time is higher than the ambient humidity. That being said, they're confidence level is high in that the product to not swell or warp over time...all of which relates to a humidor's construction and life span. That was my point.

When I shop for certain types of furniture, I look solid wood construction all the way and I'm willing to pay for that option. But when it came to shopping for a piece of furniture that would hold a wet environment over many, many years...I opted to go with a newer technology that will insure it's long term seal and shape and by no means did I look at it as a cost saving, more of a technical advantage. I too have been a long time woodworker and was a contractor for quite some time, any thin slab (2" and under) of hardwood, no matter how well it's prepared, treated and joined, will warp over time when the humidity levels are over 50% on average. I guess my insight is based on my experiences of building on or near the water (the New Jersey Shore) since the 70s. Almost every aspect of construction in a house is performed differently in that environment...I just applied some of that to my humidor buying criteria. Whether it was applied correctly, I don't know...but it was how I approached it.

You say potato, I say potahto....

No worries. Just debating. Sometimes, stuff gets lost in text on the computer screen.

My main point is that MDF is used for economy, mainly from a production standpoint (labor.) I'm not saying "cheap" just economy as demonstrated in my examples of what you have to do to get natural wood prepared.

Museums are businesses. They're thinking "most everyone isn't coming in here to see the display case, they're coming to see the article on display" In that light, the bean counter at the museum said "well, if it doesn't matter, and is less expensive, go with the MDF.... Oh, consequently it will work better too? Oh, cool."

That was my point.

I disagree that properly prepared appropriate hardwood will warp and fall apart. If I submerged mine in water, or left it out in the rain, all bets are off.

Will

 

[JHolmes763]

My main point is that MDF is used for economy ... I disagree that properly prepared appropriate hardwood will warp and fall apart.

And your opinion is based on what, exactly? What experiences, other than your single humidor, have lead you to this conclusion?

 

[badwhale]

My main point is that MDF is used for economy ... I disagree that properly prepared appropriate hardwood will warp and fall apart.

And your opinion is based on what, exactly? What experiences, other than your single humidor, have lead you to this conclusion?

Working with wood on many other projects, and being around carpenters. Seems you skipped over the examples of economy in post 21, which apply to any project.

 

[Tall Paul]

I have been following this and I may be off here but I was reading this as ironpeddler making the main point that mfd holds a better climate (temp & humidity) than any natural wood. Not so much the price of the product but the performance of it.

Paul

 

[YellowSmoke]

... Hijack?

 

[JHolmes763]

My main point is that MDF is used for economy ... I disagree that properly prepared appropriate hardwood will warp and fall apart.

And your opinion is based on what, exactly? What experiences, other than your single humidor, have lead you to this conclusion?

Working with wood on many other projects, and being around carpenters. Seems you skipped over the examples of economy in post 21, which apply to any project.

Economy does not equal "cheaper" in a construction sense, though. Your posts seem to imply that, to me at least.

I'd treat this similar to cuban cigars... know your source. Trust your source.

 

[badwhale]

Re-read post 31, which you quoted me from.

 

[JHolmes763]

Re-read post 31, which you quoted me from.

Sorry, I didn't read that part close enough, I guess. The general tone of the thread still seems to be anti-MDF for quality, though, but maybe that's just how I'm reading it. Obviously I don't read very well...

In summary, there's no reason a consumer should avoid MDF components in a humidor built by a quality woodworker, right? Solid hardwood may warp (expand in high humidity), but if you're willing to pay for it an quality woodworker can hopefully reduce that possibility as much as possible.

 

[badwhale]

Re-read post 31, which you quoted me from.

Sorry, I didn't read that part close enough, I guess. The general tone of the thread still seems to be anti-MDF for quality, though, but maybe that's just how I'm reading it. Obviously I don't read very well...

In summary, there's no reason a consumer should avoid MDF components in a humidor built by a quality woodworker, right? Solid hardwood may warp (expand in high humidity), but if you're willing to pay for it an quality woodworker can hopefully reduce that possibility as much as possible.

Right. I haven't said that MDF is inferior anywhere. I'm saying it first and foremost used for economy. That's not an opinion. I prefer solid hardwood. That's my preference, or opinion.

Will