iPass Jazz Pass & Vine

[Ginseng]

I agree with that, and personally find myself torn when it comes down to the "expectation" that puts always exceed the value of the take. If this was the case, then an argument could be made that folks only organize and run a pass to get back a bunch of nicer, more valuable cigars than they started with. Now we all know that's not the case. I think perhaps the way I see it is in extreme conditions. I wouldn't set a particular number on it, since a 50 cent difference means alot more with a $4 cigar than it does with a $20 cigar. But I see no problem when a put falls just short of the take. I think my issue is when someone grossly puts an undervalued cigar for another, and then justifies it by saying that one of their puts was worth way more.

I agree completely.

It really is up to the pass organizer and the participants to 1) establish/agree upon the expectations and ideals of the pass and 2) police it by making sure that actions are consistent with the above.

We're all big boys and I'd like to think that if someone were doing something skunky, he'd get called on it. For all other sincere attempts to "do the right thing" (which I believe Satchmo has done in this case), we're here to help and teach each other.

Wilkey

 

[wasy]

I am finding this discussion very informative!

In past passes I have always tried to make sure my puts exceeded the value of my takes, is this frowned upon?

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

I guess it did sound that way. Basically, I was not real sure on the Graycliff for the DC swap. I checked around on prices and they came up pretty equal. This is my first pass, and I did not want to short change the group. I guess I was feeling bad about the Graycliff being $.25 short of the DC. While most swaps were probably spot on value for value, this was a touch short.

I was not trying to pass a lesser stick and make up for it in another. Notice that comment was made after everything was okayed.

One thing that I did not see mentioned was this case with the DC and PGX. Technically, the Graycliff is of lesser value ($.25 or $1). Is the equal trade rule allow for a close value trade as this? Or should a passer not make a swap such as I did? I guess I figured if there was no blatent price discrepancy, there would be no issue, AND the trades are subject to the people in the pass. Sometimes the price of cigar is hard to determine. Many sticks have MSRP, but are readily available for less than that.

The pass should leave on my lunch hour today!! My CD burner crapped out, so no Armstrong CD. I did ge Coltrane done. I also added a King B to the pass that I found. No swap, just an extra. NorCal, you can add that to the bottom of the list.

Quade

What?! no Satchmo CD from Satchmo?! :laugh: if you would like, you can always send the CD to me directly to be included in the Vine, but not necessary. You did a great job with your first pass Quade and I'd like to thank you for participating, your P&T's were well within the leather as far as I'm concerned.

As I see it, the only way to break this paradox in the realm of the practical is to allow a small band of "approximately equal" for each P/T combination such that the net overall P/T value exchange is zero. So for example, we might say that MSRP match should be within $0.25 and that the overall net value exchange should be zero.

This is a great idea Wilkey and would really help the participants of a pass but I really dislike using MSRP as I don't ever see those numbers listed anywhere. I generally use a combination of vendors pricing to come up with a cigars value. Any suggestions?


David

 

[Ginseng]

As I see it, the only way to break this paradox in the realm of the practical is to allow a small band of "approximately equal" for each P/T combination such that the net overall P/T value exchange is zero. So for example, we might say that MSRP match should be within $0.25 and that the overall net value exchange should be zero.

This is great Wilkey and would really help participants of our pass. But I really dislike using MSRP as I don't ever see those numbers listed anywhere, I generally use a combination of vendors pricing to come up with a cigars value. Any suggestions?

David

David,

I think that it does not really matter which vendor we go to for pricing as long as everyone plays from the same card. So for example, we could say something like primary pricing will come from JR Cigars. If JRC does not carry the stick then and only then go to Holts. If neither JR nor Holts carry the stick, then go to XXX.

The reason I think this will work is because it gives you an exchange value and that is the only value of relevance within the confines of a pass. It does not matter that I paid $20 for a PAM Exclusivo, the exchange value is what it is worth in the pass. As long as we all go by the same price list, in the same order, it is fair.

Does that make sense?

Wilkey

 

[Gonz]

I am finding this discussion very informative!

In past passes I have always tried to make sure my puts exceeded the value of my takes, is this frowned upon?

I don't think this is frowned upon at all, only when the puts are absurdly far beyond the value of the takes. When that happens it has a tendancy to make others feel as if they need to live up to that, and that if their puts are right at or just slightly better than the takes they feel like they are lacking, which is not at all the case.

It is all summed up in this discussion.

 

[Satchmo]

I am finding this discussion very informative!

In past passes I have always tried to make sure my puts exceeded the value of my takes, is this frowned upon?

I don't think it is frowned upon. I think that is the norm. I guess I tried to go over MSRP if I could. I tried to follow rarity for rarity with the Opus/Anejo.

I believe in general people feel they need to put a $1-2 higher value stick when making a swap. This was the case with Gonz and Lykman from what I saw (not checking up on them but trying to learn/trend because this is my first pass). I guess the reasons a person does this needs to be compared to the expectations of the group.

The reason a person would place a higher priced stick in a pass:

1. That stick was the closest value available
2. They wanted to share that stick with the group regardless of price.
3. They were worried about placing an equal or slightly less valued stick and were fearful of the response of the group (They pulled a Satchmo!! J/K. Making a joke. So please do not read into this comment).

I think that the first two reasons are very acceptable. The third reason has some validity, but my opinion is that it may not need to happen as often as it does. If I had a pass, I would not want the participants to feel guilted into placing more expensive sticks in order to not be called out.

The expecations of a pass are that the host will end up with equal value sticks of a new variety to enjoy. In most cases, they may enjoy a few extras or higher value. My understanding is that this should not be expected, or the reason to host a pass. If this is truly the expectations and rules of Cigar Pass, there should not be any reason for someone to feel guilty about placing an equal or closely valued cigar!!

I think there are a couple more points regarding my post. First, the pass has members and a host who are there to approve or disaprove of a trade. I am confident that the members at CP do not bite thier tongue if they feel something is not right!! At least not in my time here! This is a check and balance, which would prevent a worst case scenario of a trend of everyone putting undervalued sticks in a swap.

I hope my P & T's did not cause any issues. I felt they were fair, and asked for approval. I do not feel that this practice hurts a pass. We also have a checks and balance with the group. We want to be fair, and enjoy the pass. It is about sharing with the BOTLs.

 

[Satchmo]

Wasy,

Can you post one more time so I can see your bikini twice on this page :love:

 

[Gonz]

Just so the record's clear, I have/had no problem with Satchmo's puts/takes and felt they were completely fair, and that he went into it with the perfect state of mind, completely willing to take constructive criticism if necessary (it wasn't).

 

[Satchmo]

[/quote]
This is a great idea Wilkey and would really help the participants of a pass but I really dislike using MSRP as I don't ever see those numbers listed anywhere. I generally use a combination of vendors pricing to come up with a cigars value. Any suggestions?


David
[/quote]

That is what I have done. I skip the CI, Famous, etc... I like to use the Cigarcyclopedia to "guesstimate" prices. I truly believe in the "guesstimate" because there are to many variables to put an exact value on a cigar. Is one man's WOAM worth more than he paid because it was bought online for MSRP and not at a B & M for $2 over?

 

[Satchmo]

Just so the record's clear, I have/had no problem with Satchmo's puts/takes and felt they were completely fair, and that he went into it with the perfect state of mind, completely willing to take constructive criticism if necessary (it wasn't).

I did not take it that way either, man. I guess there's nothing like pushing the envelope or opening a can of worms on my first pass!! I believe we need a set of rules as guidelines and the balance of the decision needs to made by the group of adults that we are supposed to/could/should/refuse to be :laugh:

You all have a good group here and can trust the voice (of the group, not the one in your head).

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

OK guys, I want to keep this moving as much as anyone else. These P / T's are assuming that Satchmo's are all good.. I sent this to NCCL and he stated that they look good but wanted to see what the general census was.


Take #10. Arturo Fuente Hemingway Classic Maduro - Put #41. Diamond Crown Maximus #5
Take #17. Joya de Nicaragua Antano 1970 Belicoso - Put #42. Don Pepin Black Label Robusto
Take #26. Opus X Dbl Corona - Put #43. Graycliff Expresso Robusto
Take #27. Casa Fuente Belicoso Fino - Put #44. DCM from TAA 2006
Take #38. Arturo Fuente Don Carlos Double Robusto - Put #45. Perdomo Estate Seleccion Vintage 1991 Aristocrata

Please note the corrections to the numbering.

 

[Gonz]

In the spirit of using the same tool to compare cigars, I often do use msrp when comparing many of the popular hard to find (I know, oxymoron) cigars, such as the Fuente and Padron, and now Tatuajes. Rarity also comes into play as well, but I start off with their base msrp's.

 

[wasy]

might spill over to the next page but I'll try and make your day

 

[Lkyman]

OK guys, I want to keep this moving as much as anyone else. These P / T's are assuming that Satchmo's are all good.. I sent this to NCCL and he stated that they look good but wanted to see what the general census was.


Take #10. Arturo Fuente Hemingway Classic Maduro - Put #40. Diamond Crown Maximus #5
Take #17. Joya de Nicaragua Antano 1970 Belicoso - Put #41. Don Pepin Black Label Robusto
Take #26. Opus X Dbl Corona - Put #42. Graycliff Expresso Robusto
Take #27. Casa Fuente Belicoso Fino - Put #43 DCM from TAA 2006
Take #38. Arturo Fuente Don Carlos Double Robusto - Put #44. Perdomo Estate Seleccion Vintage 1991 Aristocrata

Look good :thumbs:

 

[Satchmo]

OK guys, I want to keep this moving as much as anyone else. These P / T's are assuming that Satchmo's are all good.. I sent this to NCCL and he stated that they look good but wanted to see what the general census was.


Take #10. Arturo Fuente Hemingway Classic Maduro - Put #40. Diamond Crown Maximus #5
Take #17. Joya de Nicaragua Antano 1970 Belicoso - Put #41. Don Pepin Black Label Robusto
Take #26. Opus X Dbl Corona - Put #42. Graycliff Expresso Robusto
Take #27. Casa Fuente Belicoso Fino - Put #43 DCM from TAA 2006
Take #38. Arturo Fuente Don Carlos Double Robusto - Put #44. Perdomo Estate Seleccion Vintage 1991 Aristocrata

Look good :thumbs:

x2

Bye, bye Casa Fuente :love: . Say hi to Timmy for me

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

OK guys, I want to keep this moving as much as anyone else. These P / T's are assuming that Satchmo's are all good.. I sent this to NCCL and he stated that they look good but wanted to see what the general census was.


Take #10. Arturo Fuente Hemingway Classic Maduro - Put #40. Diamond Crown Maximus #5
Take #17. Joya de Nicaragua Antano 1970 Belicoso - Put #41. Don Pepin Black Label Robusto
Take #26. Opus X Dbl Corona - Put #42. Graycliff Expresso Robusto
Take #27. Casa Fuente Belicoso Fino - Put #43 DCM from TAA 2006
Take #38. Arturo Fuente Don Carlos Double Robusto - Put #44. Perdomo Estate Seleccion Vintage 1991 Aristocrata

Look good :thumbs:

x2

Bye, bye Casa Fuente :love: . Say hi to Timmy for me

LOL ....... I said the same thing in a PM, guess I'll have to plan that trip to Vegas now

 

[Lkyman]

OK guys, I want to keep this moving as much as anyone else. These P / T's are assuming that Satchmo's are all good.. I sent this to NCCL and he stated that they look good but wanted to see what the general census was.


Take #10. Arturo Fuente Hemingway Classic Maduro - Put #40. Diamond Crown Maximus #5
Take #17. Joya de Nicaragua Antano 1970 Belicoso - Put #41. Don Pepin Black Label Robusto
Take #26. Opus X Dbl Corona - Put #42. Graycliff Expresso Robusto
Take #27. Casa Fuente Belicoso Fino - Put #43 DCM from TAA 2006
Take #38. Arturo Fuente Don Carlos Double Robusto - Put #44. Perdomo Estate Seleccion Vintage 1991 Aristocrata

Look good :thumbs:

x2

Bye, bye Casa Fuente :love: . Say hi to Timmy for me

LOL ....... I said the same thing in a PM, guess I'll have to plan that trip to Vegas now

Yeah - I was wondering how long that would last........

My advice it to let it rest. When I buy them at Casa they are over humidified and have a habit of expanding and peeling. Thi one I put in the pass have about 4 months rest at 61% - should be good.


FYI - anybody needs them LMK

 

[DePasta]

Come on guys all this talking is delaying things!!! Hurry up and get this thing on the road Shooter and I are waiting!!!! Got all my Dutch Masters,White owls, backwoods etc. ready for my puts!! Does Tone Loc, Kool Mo Dee or Run DMC count as Jazz?

-D

 

[Gonz]

Come on guys all this talking is delaying things!!! Hurry up and get this thing on the road Shooter and I are waiting!!!! Got all my Dutch Masters,White owls, backwoods etc. ready for my puts!! Does Tone Loc, Kool Mo Dee or Run DMC count as Jazz?

-D

You know, I was real close to putting a copy of my "Jazzmatazz with MC Guru" CD in there. I still need to send another CD with some Count Basie that I forgot, perhaps there will be room. And remember "Guru" stands for Gifted Unlimited Rhymes Universal!!!! :sign:

 

[Satchmo]

OK guys, I want to keep this moving as much as anyone else. These P / T's are assuming that Satchmo's are all good.. I sent this to NCCL and he stated that they look good but wanted to see what the general census was.


Take #10. Arturo Fuente Hemingway Classic Maduro - Put #40. Diamond Crown Maximus #5
Take #17. Joya de Nicaragua Antano 1970 Belicoso - Put #41. Don Pepin Black Label Robusto
Take #26. Opus X Dbl Corona - Put #42. Graycliff Expresso Robusto
Take #27. Casa Fuente Belicoso Fino - Put #43 DCM from TAA 2006
Take #38. Arturo Fuente Don Carlos Double Robusto - Put #44. Perdomo Estate Seleccion Vintage 1991 Aristocrata

Look good :thumbs:

x2

Bye, bye Casa Fuente :love: . Say hi to Timmy for me

LOL ....... I said the same thing in a PM, guess I'll have to plan that trip to Vegas now

Yeah - I was wondering how long that would last........

My advice it to let it rest. When I buy them at Casa they are over humidified and have a habit of expanding and peeling. Thi one I put in the pass have about 4 months rest at 61% - should be good.


FYI - anybody needs them LMK

It would have been gone during my turn if I had any big guns laying around. I may take you up on the offer to pick a few up