I'm going to be controversial here and ask

[cigarsarge]

First off I think maybe I was too reactionary. JimK had the best answer. Death is death. It doesn't matter who died. That person had a life, a family. Someone who loved him/her. Well the death of an upstanding person.

The main difference we are arguing is not the amount of respect due to those who put their lives on the line; it's the timing of the respect and honor. I give it the moment they sign up. For some reason others wait until the person's death occurs. To me the soldier who survived the firefight deserves the same respect, honor, etc. as his companion who died next to him.

Pat Tillman was a hero the minute he signed up to fight. Not when he died. See the difference? He would be just as big of a hero if he came back unhurt after kicking some ass. However most people had never heard of him until reports of his death.

The people who are protecting me, allowing me to be the best Information Systems Analyst (for cletus) I can be, are the living ones.

I'm a very cold, calculating person. I try to seek truth through logic. I see a symbolic value to death; it may inspire others.

Ultimately though I hope you who are taking shots at me recognize that we have the same goal: to make the world a better place. Perhaps we approach it from different angles. It takes all kinds. The world would not be served well if either side of this discussion were squelched.

[snapback]197967[/snapback]​

Just because you sign up to do a job does not make one a hero. It is how you go about your duties. There are slackers that sign up to do public safety. They are not heros. They are in the same catagory as the people we try to protect you from.

Granted doing well in your profession does make you a hero. Giving your life for others elevates that status.

Lumberg...I hope to meet you one day. I want to buy you a smoke and a beer. We may have our differences but that is what makes life interesting.

 

[Islesfan]

I have been an EMT in NYC for 15 years. I don't know if you could even imagine what it was like in this city on 9/11 and still is to this day. I lost a lot people who were good friends on that day, Firefighters, Police officers, EMT's, and Paramedics. I do believe that they deserve even more respect and diginity in their passing, especially since they put everyone else above themselves. I don't think any of them would have thought that those buildings would come down, but even if they did, that would not have changed how they reacted. Everyone of them knew when they chose to protect the public that there could always be the chance they would not come home some day, but that makes them even more honorably, not less!

 

[emodx]

JC, you would have been better off asking why the media makes a big deal about instead of asking why from a personal stand point. Talk about cheesing people off. Here is the quote fron the box that leads to The Lobby:

New to CP? Come on in and introduce yourself. This forum is for general discussion on most any topic. Please refrain from discussing politics and other "touchy" subjects, and they tend to cause flame wars.

That is pinned so people don't say something really fu(k!ng stupid and cheese off half the community. You wanna talk about this, you should do it away from the forum. This is my community also.

Emo

 

[emodx]

Oh to answer your question... when these guys and gals serving this great country die it is more tragic. It is more tragic because they are running in, when ordinary people like you are running away. That my friend is tragedy.

 

[Peekay]

I agree emodx that maybe this is not a very sound topic for this forum. This topic is of a very controversial nature and is a sensitive subject to a lot of members.

Not the best of topics to discuss in this forum. I believe that there are other forums around the web that are more dedicated to philosophical issues. While I may disagree with Lumberg, I still respect him for taking a different stance than his peers.

 

[emodx]

I agree emodx that maybe this is not a very sound topic for this forum.  This topic is of a very controversial and sensitive subject to a lot of members. 

Not the best of topics to discuss in this forum.  I believe that there are other forums around the web that are more dedicated to philosophical issues. While I may disagree with Lumberg, I still respect him for taking a different stance than his peers.

[snapback]197985[/snapback]​

While I disagree with JC, I do not respect him for bringing this up here. Not the place to be conrtoversial, knowing full well how many people here serve their country. Bad taste.





Edited for spelling

 

[wam79]

Lumberg - Your logic is flawed.
you shouldn't make assumtions about how others feel. The issue I have is not that you were asking questions. You phrase the questions as a statement
It was the implication that when we honor a soldier or cop who has died in the line of duty we somehow disrespect everyone else.
Or the other implication that you conclude because we honor their death it somehow shows we don't care about the living people doing the work.
The only real thing shown in this thread is you don't have a clue
You should read the responses to your questions
don't debate the answers


Bill
edit for spelling

 

[Lumberg]

edit: not worth feeding the flames.

wam you make a good point

 

[SamClemmons]

First off I think maybe I was too reactionary. JimK had the best answer. Death is death. It doesn't matter who died. That person had a life, a family. Someone who loved him/her. Well the death of an upstanding person.

The main difference we are arguing is not the amount of respect due to those who put their lives on the line; it's the timing of the respect and honor. I give it the moment they sign up. For some reason others wait until the person's death occurs. To me the soldier who survived the firefight deserves the same respect, honor, etc. as his companion who died next to him.

Pat Tillman was a hero the minute he signed up to fight. Not when he died. See the difference? He would be just as big of a hero if he came back unhurt after kicking some ass. However most people had never heard of him until reports of his death.

The people who are protecting me, allowing me to be the best Information Systems Analyst (for cletus) I can be, are the living ones.

I'm a very cold, calculating person. I try to seek truth through logic. I see a symbolic value to death; it may inspire others.

Ultimately though I hope you who are taking shots at me recognize that we have the same goal: to make the world a better place. Perhaps we approach it from different angles. It takes all kinds. The world would not be served well if either side of this discussion were squelched.

[snapback]197967[/snapback]​

Yer an idiot. A selfserving, egocentric idiot. Only an idiot would think that this some kind of logical truth. I ain't buying this "search for truth" crap. More like a search for attention.

NA

 

[SKYDIVNEKD]

I just caught this and, unfortunately, don't have the time right now to respond(out of town, holiday things goin' on)

Rod, please don't lock this, as I don't see it as a flaming-type post. This attitude is prevalent(sp?) in our society and needs to be addressed.

Hopefully I'll be able to respond when I return home.

Lumberg, after re-reading your initial post, it has to be one of the most ignorant posts I have read here. You have the right to think the way you do, however, when you open yourself to public discussion, you get what you have coming. Believe me, the folks to this point have been light on ya. And you don't deserve anyones "RESPECT" for posting this crap.

Until I have more time.....

Floyd T.

 

[skrgrl74]

For someone who works in an LEA but is not an LEO I give many props to LEO, Firefighter, Military. IMHO you don't get paid enough to do what you have chosen to do and I also understand that it's not about the money. It's about doing what you feel is right. In the bay area you have seen over the last few months plenty of bad cops and even judges in the news. I for one am glad that they are getting what they deserve for thinking they are "mightier" than everyone else but I am also deeply saddened that they tarnish the reputation of some very fine men and women who bust their tushes for what they feel is right.

In the bay area we also seem to have quite a few officer involved shootings with open grand juries where the officer (in most cases) is exonerated (sp?) of the charges. While there is an uproar within the vicitm community.

I will say that before I was in my current position I would question the actions but now I know that they do what they are trained do so that we all can sleep peacefully at night and get up every morning to our own thing.

I wish everyone at some point in their lives can go through the police academy, fire academy or boot camp to just get a glimsp (sp?) of what they go through.

I give props and have much respect for every LEO, Firefighter and Military person in this country and abroad.

 

[Lumberg]

If the government gave everyone 8 weeks of once in their lives to go through boot camp I woudl do it in a hearbeat.

The LE that protect my agency go through a pretty rigorous test...I often do training that is similar to what their test is like (running up about 14 flights of stairs) and it's a doozy.

 

[inflatus]

I'm a very cold, calculating person. I try to seek truth through logic.

[snapback]197967[/snapback]​

Seeking truth through logic does not make you a cold and calculating person. The fact that you are ONLY using logic to seek the truth show your narrow-mindedness. One day when you open your mind to something besides logic, you will see what people have to offer.

I suggest that if you try and use a philosophical approach to your side of the argument, then you should try and pick up a few more philosophical approaches. Not all are dictated by logic. Some even stress tolerance.

Do not base your life on logic alone.

 

[Sunward]

I don't see the respect or gratitude that you talk about Lumberg. Freedom comes with a price. That includes military (freedom of country), and law enforcement (freedom of personal safety). Expecting police to do their job is not necessary... the mandate is clear, getting killed in the line of duty is part of the hazard, and when it happens there is often a widow, and children. The difference in career paths is courage, so please respect these people, and be grateful to be free.

Ed

 

[ggiese]

I'm a very cold, calculating person. I try to seek truth through logic.

[snapback]197967[/snapback]​

Seeking truth through logic does not make you a cold and calculating person. The fact that you are ONLY using logic to seek the truth show your narrow-mindedness. One day when you open your mind to something besides logic, you will see what people have to offer.

I suggest that if you try and use a philosophical approach to your side of the argument, then you should try and pick up a few more philosophical approaches. Not all are dictated by logic. Some even stress tolerance.

Do not base your life on logic alone.

[snapback]198269[/snapback]​

Interesting thought, Inflatus...

Lum - you're trying to understand this from your own personal perspective and experience. If you don't get it, you'll have trouble understanding it unless you walk in the shoes of someone who is in law enforcement, fire service or the military. I certainly would not shed a tear if one of your cloese relatives die, because I don't know them. That would be logical.

I suggest to you the most glaring problem with your logic is you are trying to understand the situation with an immature mind. You clearly don't have the experience or understanding to think any differently. If you read the posts in this thread carefully, I think you will see from the posts of people that have that experience, logic, reasoning, etc., that it should lead you to the conclusion that it is VERY tragic that anyone dies in service of his fellow man. You're not there, yet - maybe you'll never be. Clearly it doesn't, though.

Let's just say - you'll not understand it from your current prospective and leave it at that. Maybe someday you will.

 

[Allofus123]

Why is it considered a tragedy of extra proportions when a Law Enforcement Officer, or especially a member of our armed forces, gets hurt or dies?

The victims are not "innocent."  So why the major outpouring of attention when a person whose job it is to endanger themselves so that the rest of us are safe, dies? 

I do my job.  I expect you to do yours.

[snapback]197807[/snapback]​

Out of the same mouth as the guy that gave you antifreeze to store your cigars with.... .... no surprise to me.

Its sad to know that they're people that think like you. Some people have been polite in their responses and gone as far as to try and speak to you as if you're in some kind of deep psychological thinking group debating logic and theory. What a joke.... I'm shocked that most have kept this as civil as it has been. I find myself having a hard time trying to respond to this without calling you dumber than a pile of rocks so I'll try and refrain from that.

I went through boot camp with 53 brothers that were all asked the same question upon enlisting. Why are you joining the military? We had 52 of the 53 give the exact same answer. You would never understand their answer so I won't bother you with it.

Information Systems Analyst? ROFLMAO!

Sleep well while others are doing what you chosse not to.

 

[emodx]

You know what gets me about this...the poor timing. Being it is the 4th of July, and you are enjoying the freedom my brothers and sisters provide you, that doesn't speak volumes? How about this: today while every one, including you, are enjoying this glorious day, some one is going to become a widow, and some child is going to lose their father, all so you have the right to wax philosophical on a cigar bulletain forum.

 

[stevehawk]

Why are you joining the military? We had 52 of the 53 give the exact same answer.

[snapback]198280[/snapback]​

I'm pretty sure what 52 of you answered, but I gotta know...

What did the odd-man-out answer?

 

[cigarsarge]

For what it's worth me and Lumberg exchanged PMs about this. We are now at peace with one another. I think he sees things in a different light.

 

[Lee]

Happy 4th Lumpy! Remember all of those who gave their lives so you could enjoy this day......