Humidor Modifications

[gandolf565]

After doing some research on climate controlled units, I was left with the impression that the only cost effective way to get a climate controlled humi (the size that I need) was to plunk down 4-5K for an Aristocrat. I really HATE the idea of spending that much, regardless of how nice they are, when I can spend half that and still get a VERY solid, attractive humidor. Therefore, I'm really excited to hear that this isn't necessarily true. I do have a few questions though (and it's kind of long), if you wouldn't mind sharing your wisdom and knowledge:

1. How much did you invest in all of this? What can I expect to spend?

For a simple system consisting of a power supply ($50), the peltier device ($40) a couple relays ($20) and a thermostat ($20-40). The system I used would run in the neighborhood of $500. It is over-engineered , but proportional control has certain advantages. If the amount of cooling required is low then the cooling fin temperature will remain above dew point, thus no condensation.


2. Someone, who I don't think really knew what he was talking about, told me that climate controlled humis are made a little differently to accommodate these devices. Is there any truth to this or can I just buy any (decent quality) humi and expect to be able to make it climate controlled?

I just installed this, but I do not anticipate any problems. I loose the equivalent of a box of cigar's space. No big deal to me.

3. How does the cooling device affect the humidity in your humi? Does the humidity drop a good bit when it cools? I had a wine cooler for a couple of weeks but finally returned it because the humidity dropped too much and in order to protect my cigars, I would have had to keep them all in boxes which is not what I want. I would like to be able to store my sticks on shelves without having to stack boxes in the humi. Are there any similarities to your unit and what I'm describing with wine coolers?

The humidity varies by 3-5%, quite acceptable as far as I am concerned. I use Viper's beads.

3. In a year, I'll be moving down to Tampa so heating my humi obviously won't be an issue. Therefore, is there another device that you would recommend?

Not really, I think the peltier device is probably the best choice for converting a humidor to a cooled unit. The only other choice would be a conventional refrigeration type unit. That would be very costly and complicated, not really a do-it-yourself type project.

4. I'll be the first to admit, when it comes to things like this I'm not very skilled - how difficult is this? I might have to bring in someone to give me a hand! You don't live in Florida do you? :whistling:

Naaa, Kansas is my home. But I do like Florida I was able to intall everything in the pictures in one afternoon. I did quite a bit of planning beforehand, and it all went smoothly.

This Peltier technology is tailor made for humidors! I found a one-stop shop for information and parts sources. I haven't read in depth yet, but is power pulse modulation necessary? It also appears that the conesquence of cooling with a heat sink is dehumidification. Cooling past the dew point is an unavoidable side effect. Have you had trouble maintaining RH?

The PWM isn't necessary, I just did it because I could. The control scheme I use is "proportional", IE the farther from setpoint the humi temperature is, the more power goes to the peltier device. The hidden benefit is that if I am close to setpoint my peltier device is likely above the dewpoint, so no condensation.

That being said, I think I move enough air across the fins to prevent condensation from forming anyway. I have yet to see any even when it is cooling at 100%.

. . . but is power pulse modulation necessary? . . .

Allen is smarter than us on this - so he is using it - I don't know crap about it so I am not. Most manufactors info that I read said that you can either use an on/off switch or the ppm. I have taken apart a Coleman cooler and all it had was a simple thermal switch - nothing else.

My views on the RH is this: there may be an intial RH drop when the unit is first started to cool the cabinet - but once it's under operation you are not letting the temps get to high levels. Therefore by using a fan across the fins of the heatsink (cooling side) - you would be returning the condensation back into the air of the cabinet. My bench testing of my unit has produced zero condensation on the heatsink fins.

Now my theory could be that I'm full of BS - but it's my story that I'm sticking with

Ron

Half of the control business is BS so you are doing well :sign:

 

[RGD]

. . . When I was first looking into doing this, I believe I found thermoelectric devices to be very expensive (yet my search was fairly limited because I wasn't very clear on what I would need). Perhaps that is why you have not used one. . . .

Actually Allen and I are using the same exact cooler. They can be very expensive depending on where you get them from - but use the link that he posted and you can get one for $40 bucks to include both heatsinks.

His pictures show what he did - if you follow the link in my sig below - you can see what I am doing - along with a drawing of how my simple wiring will take place.

Ron

 

[gandolf565]

2. Someone, who I don't think really knew what he was talking about, told me that climate controlled humis are made a little differently to accomodate these devices. Is there any truth to this or can I just buy any (decent quality) humi and expect to be able to make it climate controlled?

Isn't that why a thermoelectric unit would be the best option? When I was first looking into doing this, I believe I found thermoelectric devices to be very expensive (yet my search was fairly limited because I wasn't very clear on what I would need). Perhaps that is why you have not used one.

Yes, a thermoelectric is probably the best option. I AM using one.

When I got the idea to add a cooling unit to my humidor, I too looked around on the 'net and saw the astronomical prices being charged for really rudimentary systems. Granted 99% of the ones I saw were lab grade devices used to cool lasers. Are they worth that? NO, not in my application.

Why are the systems used in Aristocrats so darned expensive? No idea except that people seem willing to pay so they can charge that price.

RGD's wiring schematic is sound and will work perfectly. He has a solid state thermostat which will give good control and if I remember correctly is not horribly expensive. The bonus on the SS stat is that it should be uneffected by the relatively high humidity we are dealing with.

As a side note, I did some checking and the dew point of the average humidor (70f 70%) is 59f. With adequate circulation your cooling fins will likely just skirt that temperature. In my case (70f 65%) the dew point is 57f. A lot of guys have been using 60% beads and that would be a dew point of you guessed it, 55f.

If I get energetic I will check the temperature of the cooling fins in my unit while running at 100% output and let you know what I get.

 

[theorangeman]

After doing some research on climate controlled units, I was left with the impression that the only cost effective way to get a climate controlled humi (the size that I need) was to plunk down 4-5K for an Aristocrat. I really HATE the idea of spending that much, regardless of how nice they are, when I can spend half that and still get a VERY solid, attractive humidor. Therefore, I'm really excited to hear that this isn't necessarily true. I do have a few questions though (and it's kind of long), if you wouldn't mind sharing your wisdom and knowledge:

1. How much did you invest in all of this? What can I expect to spend?

For a simple system consisting of a power supply ($50), the peltier device ($40) a couple relays ($20) and a thermostat ($20-40). The system I used would run in the neighborhood of $500. It is over-engineered , but proportional control has certain advantages. If the amount of cooling required is low then the cooling fin temperature will remain above dew point, thus no condensation.


2. Someone, who I don't think really knew what he was talking about, told me that climate controlled humis are made a little differently to accommodate these devices. Is there any truth to this or can I just buy any (decent quality) humi and expect to be able to make it climate controlled?

I just installed this, but I do not anticipate any problems. I loose the equivalent of a box of cigar's space. No big deal to me.

3. How does the cooling device affect the humidity in your humi? Does the humidity drop a good bit when it cools? I had a wine cooler for a couple of weeks but finally returned it because the humidity dropped too much and in order to protect my cigars, I would have had to keep them all in boxes which is not what I want. I would like to be able to store my sticks on shelves without having to stack boxes in the humi. Are there any similarities to your unit and what I'm describing with wine coolers?

The humidity varies by 3-5%, quite acceptable as far as I am concerned. I use Viper's beads.

3. In a year, I'll be moving down to Tampa so heating my humi obviously won't be an issue. Therefore, is there another device that you would recommend?

Not really, I think the peltier device is probably the best choice for converting a humidor to a cooled unit. The only other choice would be a conventional refrigeration type unit. That would be very costly and complicated, not really a do-it-yourself type project.

4. I'll be the first to admit, when it comes to things like this I'm not very skilled - how difficult is this? I might have to bring in someone to give me a hand! You don't live in Florida do you? :whistling:

Naaa, Kansas is my home. But I do like Florida I was able to intall everything in the pictures in one afternoon. I did quite a bit of planning beforehand, and it all went smoothly.

This Peltier technology is tailor made for humidors! I found a one-stop shop for information and parts sources. I haven't read in depth yet, but is power pulse modulation necessary? It also appears that the conesquence of cooling with a heat sink is dehumidification. Cooling past the dew point is an unavoidable side effect. Have you had trouble maintaining RH?

The PWM isn't necessary, I just did it because I could. The control scheme I use is "proportional", IE the farther from setpoint the humi temperature is, the more power goes to the peltier device. The hidden benefit is that if I am close to setpoint my peltier device is likely above the dewpoint, so no condensation.

That being said, I think I move enough air across the fins to prevent condensation from forming anyway. I have yet to see any even when it is cooling at 100%.

. . . but is power pulse modulation necessary? . . .

Allen is smarter than us on this - so he is using it - I don't know crap about it so I am not. Most manufactors info that I read said that you can either use an on/off switch or the ppm. I have taken apart a Coleman cooler and all it had was a simple thermal switch - nothing else.

My views on the RH is this: there may be an intial RH drop when the unit is first started to cool the cabinet - but once it's under operation you are not letting the temps get to high levels. Therefore by using a fan across the fins of the heatsink (cooling side) - you would be returning the condensation back into the air of the cabinet. My bench testing of my unit has produced zero condensation on the heatsink fins.

Now my theory could be that I'm full of BS - but it's my story that I'm sticking with

Ron

Half of the control business is BS so you are doing well :sign:

Thanks for the info Allen (as well as RGD). My second question though wasn't regarding space but something about how the humidor is constructed. What the guy told me was that temp. controlled humis (i.e. Aristocrat) are made a little differently inside to handle the cooling whereas your normal run of the mill humi isn't really made properly to deal with the cooling. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the guy really knew what he was talking about, but I thought I'd ask anyway!

This info is VERY helpful - thanks again guys! :thumbs:

 

[gandolf565]

It is possible that the Aristocrat is insulated between the outside wood and the spanish cedar lining. Other than that I can't think of anything they might do differently than any other humidor.

 

[theorangeman]

Here is what I have in mind, in terms of the size of humi, that I want to buy and then make it temp. controlled. I can probably find a humi like this for around 2k and then if it costs a few hundred dollars to install the cooling device(s), I'd still be saving a good 2-3k by not having to buy an Aristocrat style humi. This is at least what I'm thinking, hopefully it's feasible.

Allen, yeah that's what the guy told me - it had to do with insulation. I wonder if that's really necessary for a larger unit like what I want.

 

[Ginseng]

Fantastic work, Gan. Very impressive. :thumbs:

Makes my coolers seem positively primitive by comparison.

Wilkey

 

[Shooter]

Where is the flux capacitor???

I am looking at a new humi and might have to check into this.

 

[theorangeman]

Yes, a thermoelectric is probably the best option. I AM using one.

When I got the idea to add a cooling unit to my humidor, I too looked around on the 'net and saw the astronomical prices being charged for really rudimentary systems. Granted 99% of the ones I saw were lab grade devices used to cool lasers. Are they worth that? NO, not in my application.

Why are the systems used in Aristocrats so darned expensive? No idea except that people seem willing to pay so they can charge that price.

Ahh haa!! Somehow I missed the fact that the device is thermoelectric, even when I looked at the product page. That's incredible - 40 bucks for a unit when I remember seeing some in the $1,000 + range. However, like you mentioned earlier, they were probably intended for much more sophisticated purposes. Thanks for the clarification, Allen.

 

[RGD]

Allen, yeah that's what the guy told me - it had to do with insulation. I wonder if that's really necessary for a larger unit like what I want.

Nice Cabinet!

Insulation is always going to play a factor in any cooling situation. When I first started a design for my cabinet - I considered using a sandwhich type design with insulation. Using the KISS principle I decided instead just to increase the thickness of the wood to at least 1" all around - which gives me almost the R value as thinner wood with thin insulation. Having glass doors pretty much screws with the hassle of insulation everywhere else.

So what happens with a cabinet not designed with insulation - your coolers just run longer is all.

I don't know the size of the cabinet you have pictured - but I would guess that your going to need two and maybe three units for cooling.

Ron

 

[RGD]

This info is VERY helpful - thanks again guys! :thumbs:

You know there is a lot of interest in this subject. Personally I didn't know anyone had even tried to use Thermoelectrics in a humidor until after I stumbled upon the idea to do mine after looking at my Coleman cooler.
Next thing I know I'm getting emails off my webpage and finding all sorts of coolers being installed.

Point is that it would be great to have a thread or forum just for this topic where we could pool ideas, hints and suggestions.


My latest idea in this deal has to do with an enclosure to hold the works. Allen has a slick box - but he being in the field had more knowledge on where to look. I was getting ready to order from his suggestion when I saw this old Gateway desktop on my stack of old computers. I have gutted the thing and am currently testing the power supply in it. I have a feeling that it will run all my lights, fans and coolers! Computer power supplies output DC voltage and not AC - everything from 3.3 volts up to 12 volts -

So as I said - it's all about ideas. And thanks to Allen for starting this thread. Even though I had already talked to him - it's cool to see the install and get even more ideas.

Ron

 

[gandolf565]

Here is what I have in mind, in terms of the size of humi, that I want to buy and then make it temp. controlled. I can probably find a humi like this for around 2k and then if it costs a few hundred dollars to install the cooling device(s), I'd still be saving a good 2-3k by not having to buy an Aristocrat style humi. This is at least what I'm thinking, hopefully it's feasible.

Allen, yeah that's what the guy told me - it had to do with insulation. I wonder if that's really necessary for a larger unit like what I want.

The biggest thing with insulation is that you will need more cooling capacity to do the job. I am actually giving some thought to using some mylar "bubble" sheets inside on the top, the back and possibly the bottom.

Like RGD said, three units would probably be called for. If it were me I would fashion a "duct" up the back of the unit with holes spaced evenly and blow through the cooling units, up the duct and have the return at the bottom of the cabinet. Looking at the cabinet pictures there should be plenty of room at the back for a duct that is 1 or 2 inches deep and however wide. Definitely do-able.

Noise is an issue. I picked the fans I did because of the size, in retrospect I should have done more research and picked a slower moving (thus quieter) fan. That would mean increased size, but I could have dealt with it. The noise is roughly the same as my computer, so it really isn't that bad.

 

[Putz Mulligan]

Where is the flux capacitor???

I am looking at a new humi and might have to check into this.

Classic Shooter! The Adventures of Buckeroo Banzai Across the Eight Dimension....just one of the best damn movies ever. :thumbs:

I think I am one of the few who actually owns this on DVD. :whistling:

 

[gandolf565]

A quick update:

I have been getting condensation on the cooling side heatsink. The condensation just drips down into a container that has Vipers beads in it.

That said, my humidity level has been a consistent 65% to 68% (65% beads).

Since the weather has warmed up here the system has been working to the maximum capability. In the morning my temperature is a perfect 70f, but as the day progresses it tends to creep up to about 71f. All the while the system is working at 100% capacity. I need to add another peltier device .

 

[outlawsp]

You have symmetrical multiprocessors in your home computer? What else do you need 4 pelteir devices for?

Cool use for the peltiers!
I have 4 of them keeping my overclocked processors cool in my computer.

Its an old, rare A-Bbit BP6, Dual processor. Old P2 board.
And I have 2 on the Voodoo 5 5500 video card.
I have kept this machine around because it plays games well, but that's about it.

 

[theorangeman]

A quick update:

I have been getting condensation on the cooling side heatsink. The condensation just drips down into a container that has Vipers beads in it.

That said, my humidity level has been a consistent 65% to 68% (65% beads).

Since the weather has warmed up here the system has been working to the maximum capability. In the morning my temperature is a perfect 70f, but as the day progresses it tends to creep up to about 71f. All the while the system is working at 100% capacity. I need to add another peltier device .

Thanks for the update, Allen. I was wondering yesterday, as I was looking at units again, how your humi is treating you now with the increased heat. This is going to be an interesting project, that is, once I ever get started. ???

 

[gandolf565]

Another update...

I have decided that the fans I used do not move enough air to allow the peltier device to work as efficiently as it can.

Or that the duct work on the hot side needs redesigned to allow less air to bypass the hot side heatsink fins.

Temporarily I have placed a small Vornado (made in Andover Kansas!) fan to blow air across the back of the humi. Works like a charm. With my house at 75f the humi stays at a perfect 70f 24/7. The PWM module generally stays between 50 to 80% and has reduced the amount of condensation on the cold side heatsink dramatically.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[smokelaw1]

Man, you could really start a bsuiness out of this. Coolederdors.(I want credit for coming up withthe name!)
For what people spend for a cooled unit (I am about 1/2 through the wait for an Aristocrat Plus with temp control...), it keeps many, many folks out of the market. This, of course, leads to the people storing cigars in sub-optimal conditions, and risking beetles, etc. If you could turn out a cheap version for under 100 bucks, or an advanced one for in the 500 range....I think plenty of folks would buy them. Any thoughts of running a side business? (I don't think it would provide a retirement-worthy lifetime income).

 

[Shooter]

I would go for one, for sure...

 

[symyn]

I'd buy one.

The one problem with this type of setup is cutting into your humidor back. I for one do not have one ounce of wood working ability (built a chess board and some crazy dachsaund in wood shop). So for this to work for me I would have to mail a heavy ass end table humidor across country in some box that probably doesn't have enough padding, then Allen would have to do his magic and mail that heavy ass humidor back Great idea though