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Getting your feet wet Pass II

Let me also make something very clear....the statement "leave the pass better than you received it" does not refer to you upgrading the cigars at each persons turn. The statement means...if you get the pass and the box is pretty well beaten up, replace it. If the person in front of you forgot to put the Sharpie back in the bag, put another one in. If a cigar has a crack in it when you do your inspection and you have one in your humi, make a trade for it (certainly not at MSRP). If someone forgot to list his puts and takes in the folder, take the time to put in in for them. This is what "leave the pass better than you received it" means...not increasing the passes value. It's common sense that it has to be of a higher value at the end because you have to make equal trades or better.



Read THIS post. It has really good insight on what's being discussed by some of the most seasoned passers on CP.
 
If we keep this Pass in the 'Spirit of Learning', than these discussions are (IMO) happening way too soon. The box hasn't even been mailed yet and already we're into a more advanced debate better suited to a more experienced Pass. :whistling:
If a learning pass is too early to learn about HTF's and rarity, what will happen when you enter your first "live" high end pass where you put in a Padron '26 #6 that MSRP's $14 for an Anejo MSRP'ing for ~$8 and you get trampled upon by a few senior members? What better time to learn about ALL aspects of a pass than a learning pass? Also, I think it is in the best interest of the pass and participants to have a discussion like this before the pass is underway.....that way a debate like this doesn't keep the pass from moving. This is my 15th pass people, I think you can have a little confidence in the way I operate a pass.
Believe me, I wasn't questioning your judgement by any means, but you asked for opinions.

I would have thought the first conversation in a Newbie Pass would have involved a 'price-for-price' line of questioning...that's all. I was mistaken...thank you for the correction as I see your point now.

It's common sense that it has to be of a higher value at the end because you have to make equal trades or better.
In some of the Passes I've read involving the Senior members, they commented just as strongly about higher priced sticks replacing lower priced sticks...trying to get them within 0.25 to 0.50. But now, after reading your comments Brian, I see where you're coming from and you will not be as strict. This latitude gives us a bigger learning cushion and raises more questions for discussion over time.
 
Let me also make something very clear....the statement "leave the pass better than you received it" does not refer to you upgrading the cigars at each persons turn. The statement means...if you get the pass and the box is pretty well beaten up, replace it. If the person in front of you forgot to put the Sharpie back in the bag, put another one in. If a cigar has a crack in it when you do your inspection and you have one in your humi, make a trade for it (certainly not at MSRP). If someone forgot to list his puts and takes in the folder, take the time to put in in for them. This is what "leave the pass better than you received it" means...not increasing the passes value. It's common sense that it has to be of a higher value at the end because you have to make equal trades or better.



Read THIS post. It has really good insight on what's being discussed by some of the most seasoned passers on CP.

Very good point. I assumed that this would be a given. I have been thinking more about this and again this is just my opinion on it. I think we need to discuss it some more. I feel in this one example that Danny really wants to get some Opus and the only way he can do it is to put the CF. I would have a problem if someone were just showing off. For example if someone were to take a Padron 4000 and replace it with a Padron 40th that would not be in the spirit of the pass. I do not feel that was the case here.

I also believe that Brian would not let us sink if he saw the pass going in a bad direction he would put it back on course. Let's get some more opinions while we have time. We can ask Brian for help but as a group should work this out.

Best Regards
Don
 
I agree with {tpc}.. and I also like the idea of low msrp and HTF = higher msrp less rare to find stick.

Again, just my .02


It's been my understanding, through my research in other passes that rarity doesn't mean an increase in value, but is instead a limiter on what can be traded for it. So you should still strive to match/come close to matching MSRP AND rarity, not use rarity to counter an MSRP difference.
 
I agree with {tpc}.. and I also like the idea of low msrp and HTF = higher msrp less rare to find stick.

Again, just my .02


It's been my understanding, through my research in other passes that rarity doesn't mean an increase in value, but is instead a limiter on what can be traded for it. So you should still strive to match/come close to matching MSRP AND rarity, not use rarity to counter an MSRP difference.


That is also a great point. I have no cigar that will match both requirements of the CF so I would pass on them. I really do not have a good grasp on what is best done in this circumstance. Do suggest to someone who really wants a stick they cannot easily find that he cannot take that stick because the put is to lopsided in the MSRP+rarity? Maybe we do. We might want to suggest that if at all possible that Danny tries to find other cigars to put back into the pass. It will come down to what Brian thinks is best for the pass. I think we as the group involved in this pass to try to find a solution that will serve the pass best.

Best Regards
Don
 
Clearly this issue is the heart of the issue in all passes.

Jonesy, your recommended reading shows the differing opinions and the general practices of the vets, but still leaves it hanging. Some say no rare's in newbee passes, others suggest basing it off MSRP.

I think the concern I have with this is mainly because this is the very first T-P of this pass and it sets a very high precedent that probably all of wish we could follow but probably will not be able to. I agree with someone's earlier observation that if this were later in the pass then it would probably be less of concern, though still a valid one.

I would hate to have to go out and buy 3 cigars in order to participate in a newbee pass because suddenly the level and quality of the entire pass grew exponentially such that we felt like we had to compete to keep face on the board and not be "that guy."

Already the level of dialogue this pass has created (even before lifting off) has made participating in it well worth it for me as I am now trying to craft the perfect (MSRPxRarity/GPS Location)+Pi equation that would solve this dilemma; unfortunately I quit math after HS.
 
From a purely pragmatic standpoint, and I don't mean to speak for #2 or to tell DR what to do, but in order to take this debate from a practical and consequential debate over the proper course of action and turn it into a hypothetical or philosophical discussion on ideal pass procedure, it might be easiest for DR to take the Casas back out of the equation and offer them for trade to a senior member in exchange for a few Opii. I'm sure it wouldn't take long before someone would be glad to do the swap.

I assume that DR has access to other, more modest sticks that might be easier and less controversial for inclusion in the pass. That way DR gets to try some Opii in exchange for his Casas just as he would if making the trade via the pass (and he'll probably get closer to "market value" for them to boot) and he still fully participates in the pass, but it doesn't throw this moral monkeywrench into the flow of things.
 
i dont really have a a care if he is let to do it or he is not but i do think that other should not let themselves get influenced by one person's put/trades. It should not set a precedent, we should all be making our decisions on what we have read and come to think equal value/msrp is.

but i do have this question kinda off topic but also on... can the CF really be clasified as rare
yes it can only be found in one place but its readily available there for purchase, where as some opus can be pruchased in many cigar shops but cannot be found to purchase. tons of people go to vegas every month and you can always find someone to get your hands on one where its not the same for lets say a Between the lines maduro

hope this doesnt stir anyone wrong...i'm just wondering
 
My line of thought is that I want to experience cigars that I may have wanted to try but either couldn't find or could only find with great difficulty, and then share smokes that I have personally enjoyed and want to share with others while trying to equate the puts to the takes based on MSRP. As others have said, rarity can be difficult to define or equate but I'm certainly not going to put in sticks that every B&M in town has day in and day out. All that being said, using the cigar references suggested by Jonesy should allow me to make the puts and takes that meet the basic criteria. I don't think we should be getting into any one-upsmanship here or be worrying about losing face over our contributions when the pass comes our way.
 
i dont really have a a care if he is let to do it or he is not but i do think that other should not let themselves get influenced by one person's put/trades. It should not set a precedent, we should all be making our decisions on what we have read and come to think equal value/msrp is.

but i do have this question kinda off topic but also on... can the CF really be clasified as rare
yes it can only be found in one place but its readily available there for purchase, where as some opus can be pruchased in many cigar shops but cannot be found to purchase. tons of people go to vegas every month and you can always find someone to get your hands on one where its not the same for lets say a Between the lines maduro

hope this doesnt stir anyone wrong...i'm just wondering

I agree on both accounts.
1). This isn't a competition, it's a learning pass. If Jonesy was against it, he would not have given his approval with then P/T's were listed. He also acknowledged that it was bit heavy, but was OK. Regardless, the discussion has been valuable since as a community, we're learning what is acceptable in these types of situations.
2). Even though it's just one place, it's always available, so I agree how you put it.
 
VERDICT

Each person that has posted has made a valid point. When you get into rare, or HTF cigars, it's hard to come up with a concrete dollar for dollar amount on this type of trade. In any pass I've ever been in, a Casa Fuente has never garnered any extra dollar amount for rarity. I've seen them go for ESG"s, DCM Stanford's 90th's, Padron 40th's...etc. When you hit a certain plateau value wise it's hard for a cigar to go any higher without putting it completely out of range of being able to trade another cigar for it i.e. a Padron Millenium usually can only be taken with an OR Anejo or OR Opus....but a trade is still there. An OR Opus Perfexcion X might only have a MSRP of $12 while the Millenium has an MSRP of $34, but you're looking at around a $60-$100 + on a straight out buy for either one.
This pass isn't about one-upmanship, trying to outdo one another, or anything else along those lines. It's about learning how to handle yourself in a pass, make a few friends, and get to try out a stick or two that you've been wanting to try or don't have access to. Danny is not trying to set a precedent here with his puts, he's simply making a trade for some cigars that he has absolutely NO access to and trading the only cigars he has in his stash that would permit a trade for the cigars he wants. This trade doesn't bother me because it's taking three "rare" or HTF cigars out of the pass and replacing them with three cigars that will be able to be traded for fairly easily. Now, if he were putting in the 2 CF's for a couple of PAM's then I would have nixed the trade. Even if he couldn't get PAM's at his local B&M, there are plenty of vendors here or online that he would be able to purchase these from....unlike the Opii or Anejo.
Someone stated that if this happened latter in the pass that it wouldn't have the consequences this trade brings at the beginning of the pass....yes it does. It might not effect the majority of the people of the pass but it would effect the pass and the passers itself. Do you realize how many people seem to drop from the face of the earth after their turn is done in a pass? The thinking then becomes, "I'm done, there's no need to keep up with the pass anymore. How many people would have learned from this if it had happened 3 people from the end instead of the beginning? Would the line of thinking be the same then as it is now?....I don't think so. I realize that the "proposed" reading I gave you in the link doesn't answer the questions, but it does give you insight as to how some experienced members look at these things. Someone also mentioned where other passes wanted the P/T's to stay within $.25-$.50 of each other....that is rediculous. I know the pass you're talking about, I'm a part of it. To ask someone to stay within a fifty cent range without going under is almost unattainable. Go to the main list of cigars, pick 4 randomly, then go look in you humi and see if you can make the trade and stay within that twenty five to fifty cent range. I know I can't because the majority of cigars in my humi's are $10+. I'm not saying I'm better than other people by making that statement, I'm saying I like to smoke good, quality cigars when I get the chance to smoke them. So for me to make a trade for a $7 cigar, I would need to go to the B&M and buy one...and I'm not going to do that.
I realize that I haven't answered every question or concern with this post, but hopefully you understand where I'm coming from now. The statement below was one of the best at explaining what we're dealing with:
"It's been my understanding, through my research in other passes that rarity doesn't mean an increase in value, but is instead a limiter on what can be traded for it. So you should still strive to match/come close to matching MSRP AND rarity, not use rarity to counter an MSRP difference."
Sometimes the only thing suitable for a trade is a cigar with a higher dollar amount because the amount of "rare" cigars out there are usually only limited to some Fuente products such as Opus, Anejo, Hemingway maduros, where you normally have to trade one to get the other.
With all this being stated, I know that I can't keep everyone happy with my decision, but it's my decision to make as the host of this pass. Therefore, I deem DesertRat's P/T's good.
 
Jonesy, I could not agree more.. Thanks..

And in the spirit of the pass and from a noobs point of view I thank everyone else for the informative debate. I learned a lot from this already and the pass has not even left yet.
 
I also thought this was a great learning phase for me. It went pretty well with people expressing opinions. There was no "you don't know what your talking about" going on. At the end of some good constructive debate a decision was made and we move on.

Best Regards
Don
 
Sounds good to me, my only concern was that a "precident" would be set. We have had our debate and now we have our answer. Lets get back to the important things in life, like trying to decide what I will swap for one of those Casa's. :)
 
Okay, just this is clear in my head:

When the pass reaches me, can I trade Anejo and Opus for the Casa Fuentes?


I realized this sounds kinda smart ass, but it really is a serious question.
 
Okay, just this is clear in my head:

When the pass reaches me, can I trade Anejo and Opus for the Casa Fuentes?

I am not sure of the answer to this. If I were to take a CF I would put in something like a GOF or a Padron 80th. :thumbs:

Best Regards
Don
 
Okay, just this is clear in my head:

When the pass reaches me, can I trade Anejo and Opus for the Casa Fuentes?

I am not sure of the answer to this. If I were to take a CF I would put in something like a GOF or a Padron 80th. :thumbs:

Best Regards
Don

I have a handful of Casa Fuentes if anyone would like to trade me GOF or Padron 80ths for them. :laugh:
 
Okay, just this is clear in my head:

When the pass reaches me, can I trade Anejo and Opus for the Casa Fuentes?


I realized this sounds kinda smart ass, but it really is a serious question.
No, because then you'd have an MSRP problem. I'm only allowing this trade because of the unavailability of the cigars in question coupled with the fact that these are the only cigars Danny can trade for them. I'm not trying to set a precedent for passes with the decision I've made, I just made the best dicision I thought possible after taking in all the factors including the overall welfare of the pass.
 
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