Fidel Castro Resigns

[Mike33]

No doubt it is a good sign. But, will it change anything? No one can say, but at this point, small steps like this are a positive.

 

[rbbrock]

I admit I don't know anything about Cuban politics, but based on what's said in this thread, about Raul being more moderate, however slightly, it sounds like any change will be a change for the better. If a small change improves the situation, perhaps the people of Cuba will see that a different way is better and they will demand further reform from their government.

 

[Newfie]

I saw similar conditions in the Philippines, and they're happy because they focus on relationships, not stuff, and stuff doesn't matter at the end of the day, relationships do. I think what i and another poster are saying is not a knock on the Cuban people (my sister raves about the Cuban people), but conditions there are pretty rough, and with a country like Cuba, it shouldn't have to be. Maybe some positive change will happen soon, for the Cuban people.....snip

Very VERY well said!!!! :thumbs:

snip....Yes, Americans are TERRIBLY spoiled, terribly. Interesting how politicians talk about ending poverty here, we don't have poverty here, not even close, compared to the stuff you see in 3rd world countries.

Don't really know if I agree with that.

I personally haven't seen any homeless in Cuba. (Someone above mentioned havana and the conditions. Like I said, not having been I can't comment.) Some are saying the Cuban people live in "Poverty", yet they have food to eat, a roof over their heads, family (and a sense of "Family"), access to free education and (some semblance of) medical care, etc.

How much of this do homeless in North America have? Who has the worst poverty???

Newfie, not trying to 'start anything', but are you saying that the Cuban people are better off being poor, and that whatever Fidel's doing is working as the evils of Capitalism inherently corrupt, and that the Gov't knows what's best for the people, the people don't?

Not taken that way at all Pal, just hoping this keeps as a "civilized" conversation.

No, I'm not saying they're better off being poor, but I'm questioning whether they'll be better off with a major influx of $$$$, and let's face it, it's gonna happen. We've all seen and / or read about it. How long before they just become "another group of greedy North Americans"??

HUDSON:

Nice comment about the raft, but as I said above, I'd like this to be kept a civilized conversation so I'll keep my comments to myself on this one.

 

[bimmer635csi]

I heard they have WMDs.

Alot of the Cuban women i've seen here in the US have some pretty potent weapons

Ba la la la la ... La Bomba....

 

[nhcigarfan]

Nothing will happen in the short term. Long term. with the money out there I wouldn't doubt if a limited embargo stays in place for tobacco and it's related items contingent on disenfranchised landowners having their property rights restored.

 

[Nice_Ashh]

Reported on MSNBC.com:

The United States said it was unlikely to lift its trade embargo. “I can't imagine that happening any time soon,” U.S. Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte told reporters in response to a question on whether the restrictions could be lifted.

Entire article can be found here Link

 

[Gator]

I saw similar conditions in the Philippines, and they're happy because they focus on relationships, not stuff, and stuff doesn't matter at the end of the day, relationships do. I think what i and another poster are saying is not a knock on the Cuban people (my sister raves about the Cuban people), but conditions there are pretty rough, and with a country like Cuba, it shouldn't have to be. Maybe some positive change will happen soon, for the Cuban people.....snip

Very VERY well said!!!! :thumbs:

snip....Yes, Americans are TERRIBLY spoiled, terribly. Interesting how politicians talk about ending poverty here, we don't have poverty here, not even close, compared to the stuff you see in 3rd world countries.

Don't really know if I agree with that.

I personally haven't seen any homeless in Cuba. (Someone above mentioned havana and the conditions. Like I said, not having been I can't comment.) Some are saying the Cuban people live in "Poverty", yet they have food to eat, a roof over their heads, family (and a sense of "Family"), access to free education and (some semblance of) medical care, etc.

How much of this do homeless in North America have? Who has the worst poverty???

Newfie, not trying to 'start anything', but are you saying that the Cuban people are better off being poor, and that whatever Fidel's doing is working as the evils of Capitalism inherently corrupt, and that the Gov't knows what's best for the people, the people don't?

Not taken that way at all Pal, just hoping this keeps as a "civilized" conversation.

No, I'm not saying they're better off being poor, but I'm questioning whether they'll be better off with a major influx of $$$$, and let's face it, it's gonna happen. We've all seen and / or read about it. How long before they just become "another group of greedy North Americans"??

HUDSON:

Nice comment about the raft, but as I said above, I'd like this to be kept a civilized conversation so I'll keep my comments to myself on this one.

Having never been there, i can't say if the poverty level is the same as the Philippines. In the Philippines, you don't work, you starve. If you're sick and can't afford health care, you die. There are millions of homeless in Manila, and often homes are corrugated tin shacks w/ no electricity, plumbing, and raw sewage in the ditch at their 'front door'.

In the US, yeah, we have homeless, and not saying there aren't some cases of valid reasons why they are homeless, but there are programs here to find housing, food, and medical care that the large majority of people CAN take advantage of. My understanding is many homeless people are mentally ill, or addicts, and don't want to be treated, but there are soup kitchens and other places to get help, if they choose. What we call poverty here and what i saw in the Philippines are two totally different things. I better stop b4 for this gets too political...

I heard a statement on talk radio that most humans can handle repression and abuse at an unbelievable level, but can't seem to handle success as well.

 

[CaptainContrary]

In response to someone mentioning Fidel's estranged sons -- we have one here in the US. "Fidelito" lives up here in Flushing, Queens!

And as to the living conditions in Cuba, at the risk of coming across as a Fidel-apologist, let's remember that Cuba has suffered under a total and complete trade embargo with the largest economy on the planet, the ol' U.S. of A., for more than 50 years. The fact that the nation of Cuba limps along at all is a testament to the fortitude of its people.

 

[Mike33]

No, I'm not saying they're better off being poor, but I'm questioning whether they'll be better off with a major influx of $$$$, and let's face it, it's gonna happen. We've all seen and / or read about it. How long before they just become "another group of greedy North Americans"??

I think that is a valid point. There is such a thing as too fast an expansion of wealth/capital. The main concern I would think is that all of that wealth does not make its way down to the people who it is meant for. The "trickle down" theory of economics often does not work very well in impoverished third-world countries that see a rapid expansion in GNP. Part of the reasons (some would say the main reason) that the Cuban revolution did happen was Batista's corruption and the great disparity among the rich and poor.

Obviously, the revolution has been disastrous for Cuba and almost all other Communist countries economically. The poor become even more poor and well, the rich just left. I think if there is going to be investment into Cuba, the Gov. should try to keep it at safe levels. This may not be possible with Americans flocking to the country in millions, but it should at least be attempted.

 

[BobbyRitz]

Frank-

In many conversations I've had regarding Cuban people, the main word used to describe them is proud.

Cuba has universal healthcare, so your comparison to the Phillippines is moot. The Phillippines are very different from Cuba. Is there any way that we could keep this thread more on topic?

 

[Gator]

Establishment of a middle class is a bad thing. Look how backwards the US and many European countries are.

 

[moki]

Sunward, pray tell what you've seen there "with your own eyes" to make you say conditions are horrible???

I have been to Cuba, and travelled to villages, and Havanna (we hired a driver). We went to peoples private homes and saw how these ordinary people live.

Not having been to Havana, I can't comment on that. But the areas I've been to I saw a breed of proud, very polite people who, IMHO and as I've said here before, are happier with their lot than the average North American.

Ah yes, the "noble native" canard... with the added hypocrisy of you admiring them, but not in a million years wishing to live like they do.

 

[moki]

Frank-

In many conversations I've had regarding Cuban people, this the main word used to describe them is proud.

Cuba has universal healthcare, so your comparison to the Phillippines is moot. The Phillippines are very different from Cuba. Is there any way that we could keep this thread more on topic?

My mother is a doctor who has done volunteer medical work in Cuba on numerous occasions. What would you like to know about Cuba's "wonderful" universal healthcare? Would you like to visit the semi-modern hospitals that are for party elite and foreigners only?

Or would you like to visit the unsanitary, ramshackle, under-supplied, under-staffed dumps that your average Cuban is funneled into for their "universal healthcare"?

 

[BobbyRitz]

Frank-

In many conversations I've had regarding Cuban people, this the main word used to describe them is proud.

Cuba has universal healthcare, so your comparison to the Phillippines is moot. The Phillippines are very different from Cuba. Is there any way that we could keep this thread more on topic?

My mother is a doctor who has done volunteer medical work in Cuba on numerous occasions. What would you like to know about Cuba's "wonderful" universal healthcare? Would you like to visit the semi-modern hospitals that are for party elite and foreigners only?

Or would you like to visit the unsanitary, ramshackle, under-supplied, under-staffed dumps that your average Cuban is funneled into for their "universal healthcare"?

Nowhere did I suggest their system as being "wonderful". My point simply was that Cuba has universal healthcare and, to my knowledge, the Philippines do not.

 

[CigarStone]

What's really interesting is the number of people who think the embargo is about Castro.

The US is in a lose-lose with the embargo. If we ended the embargo there is countless good that could come of it but the government would then have to explain why the embargo really happened in the first place and that would be a complete embarrassment to the Kennedy's and the party in control at the time of the Bay of Pigs.

 

[Newfie]

Sunward, pray tell what you've seen there "with your own eyes" to make you say conditions are horrible???

I have been to Cuba, and travelled to villages, and Havanna (we hired a driver). We went to peoples private homes and saw how these ordinary people live.

Not having been to Havana, I can't comment on that. But the areas I've been to I saw a breed of proud, very polite people who, IMHO and as I've said here before, are happier with their lot than the average North American.

Ah yes, the "noble native" canard... with the added hypocrisy of you admiring them, but not in a million years wishing to live like they do.

Moki, you may call it hypocrisy, I call it respect for the way they are, what they have and how they live. I never said it was good, great or anything like that. However, from what I've seen it isn't the deepest darkest depths of absolute poverty so many make it out to be.

snip....Would you like to visit the semi-modern hospitals that are for party elite and foreigners only?

Or would you like to visit the unsanitary, ramshackle, under-supplied, under-staffed dumps that your average Cuban is funneled into for their "universal healthcare"?

Sometimes these are one in the same, my friend!!! And THAT, is seen through my own eyes.

 

[Mike33]

What's really interesting is the number of people who think the embargo is about Castro.

The US is in a lose-lose with the embargo. If we ended the embargo there is countless good that could come of it but the government would then have to explain why the embargo really happened in the first place and that would be a complete embarrassment to the Kennedy's and the party in control at the time of the Bay of Pigs.

So, the embargo is really about Kennedy and the Democrats? So why didn't all the subsequent administrations, including Republicans, lift the embargo to show that Kennedy and the Dems had it all wrong?

 

[Newfie]

What's really interesting is the number of people who think the embargo is about Castro.

The US is in a lose-lose with the embargo. If we ended the embargo there is countless good that could come of it but the government would then have to explain why the embargo really happened in the first place and that would be a complete embarrassment to the Kennedy's and the party in control at the time of the Bay of Pigs.

Very good point, but does anyone in the Government "REALLY" remember? ???

 

[CigarStone]

What's really interesting is the number of people who think the embargo is about Castro.

The US is in a lose-lose with the embargo. If we ended the embargo there is countless good that could come of it but the government would then have to explain why the embargo really happened in the first place and that would be a complete embarrassment to the Kennedy's and the party in control at the time of the Bay of Pigs.

So, the embargo is really about Kennedy and the Democrats? So why didn't all the subsequent administrations, including Republicans, lift the embargo to show that Kennedy and the Dems had it all wrong?

No-one said anything about democrats or republicans......I certainly didn't. It wasn't about dems or reps it was about a political nightmare that escalated and resulted in something so embarrassing we (our government) may never be able to look back and admit what the motivation was.

 

[npedersen]

I agree, let's put things into perspective. The Embargo was a political move to punish Cuba, Castro was just the guy that allowed it, for letting the Cold War come miles from our shores by allowing the other Communist powers to store Long Range weapons some said to have Nukes on them.

Let's take the current events in to account. Kosovo has declared Independance, what does this have to do with it? The Russians and many other countries in Eastern Europe will not recognize them, the US has along with Britain and Germany. The Russians have repeatedly pushed us, the North Koreans have taunted. For the US to lift the Embargo, Cuba would have to initiate talks to lift it, not US.

We would be foolish to just lift it, we would have to have a strong treaty with future punishment if it were to be broken and the US would have to have a VERY strong presence.

So it looks like you guys have to pay mucho dinero for your Cubans for a long time. Me I'll stick to Fuente's and RP and Don Pepin etc. . .

Just my thoughts,
Nick