Buying my first cubans

[ggiese]

I understand your point Kann, but are the stores selling them US Stores or are they Foreign Nation Stores?
Location does not really factor into it, all US Soldiers and Citizens should know the law, and as long as there are those from other Nations that can legaly purchase and consume Cuban Cigars the stores are well within their rights to sell them.
Americans should not be buying them as it is against OUR laws. We also should not roll stop signs, or cook meth....it comes down to reward versus risk.

or at least that is my point of view on it.

Tim

Grateful and IP, I cannot vouch for authenticity, personally, to be honest. I don't go in there very often, but next time I'm around there I will definitely ask their source. That is interesting about someone finding one on a mil installation from a supposed-legit source such as a foreign government facility.

MX, you are absolutely correct. The original point I was trying to make was that of the interests of Uncle Sam. You can't go half a day without having to acknowledge some sort of warning/briefing on POLICY, yet I have never, ever seen or heard anything briefed pertaining to this federal LAW. Every day I am reminded of the quiet hours policy here on base. Leadership makes sure that their people know to be quiet after 2200 so little babies and office workers can sleep peacefully. Ensuring compliance with a global-spanning federal law isn't too high on the "things to do today" list for those in charge, it appears. I'm not questioning whether it's right, wrong, or indifferent. Just a pertinent observation.

So what you're saying is that the US military is no longer concerned about "trading with the enemy"?

I'd say it's more of a priority thing on bases in Iraq and Afghanistan. Plus, they are fake.

The Afghan bases are NATO and not US, so them being available there is not an issue. I think there's more of a possibility those in the Dutch, Canadian, etc. stores are real, but who knows for sure...

So buying a cigar, produced by a US "enemy" - even though it's being sold by the Dutch - is OK?

 

[JHolmes763]

So buying a cigar, produced by a US "enemy" - even though it's being sold by the Dutch - is OK?

If you're Dutch or Canadian or anything but US, sure. That's why you can see them for sale on NATO installations.

 

[MX]

I understand your point Kann, but are the stores selling them US Stores or are they Foreign Nation Stores?
Location does not really factor into it, all US Soldiers and Citizens should know the law, and as long as there are those from other Nations that can legaly purchase and consume Cuban Cigars the stores are well within their rights to sell them.
Americans should not be buying them as it is against OUR laws. We also should not roll stop signs, or cook meth....it comes down to reward versus risk.

or at least that is my point of view on it.

Tim

Grateful and IP, I cannot vouch for authenticity, personally, to be honest. I don't go in there very often, but next time I'm around there I will definitely ask their source. That is interesting about someone finding one on a mil installation from a supposed-legit source such as a foreign government facility.

MX, you are absolutely correct. The original point I was trying to make was that of the interests of Uncle Sam. You can't go half a day without having to acknowledge some sort of warning/briefing on POLICY, yet I have never, ever seen or heard anything briefed pertaining to this federal LAW. Every day I am reminded of the quiet hours policy here on base. Leadership makes sure that their people know to be quiet after 2200 so little babies and office workers can sleep peacefully. Ensuring compliance with a global-spanning federal law isn't too high on the "things to do today" list for those in charge, it appears. I'm not questioning whether it's right, wrong, or indifferent. Just a pertinent observation.

So what you're saying is that the US military is no longer concerned about "trading with the enemy"?

Not sure what your saying here, honestly, I am confused not trying to be a smart ass at all.....

Trading with the enemy is not an issue, Joint Bases are not US bases, and they can sell what ever they like. US Soldieres and Citizens SHOULD NOT be breaking the law, so there for they SHOULD NOT be trading with the enemy. The reality of the situation is that it does happen, right or wrong, it happens. People will tend to do what they think they can get away with. I was told a long time ago by a "Crusty" Sergeant Major that we all do the wrong thing for 1 of 2 reasons. We don't know, or we don't care......if you are reading this thread you have lost one of those reasons.....

Tim

 

[ChasingAsh]

I think he is there already and wants to smoke them there. Not bring them back, maybe wrong but that's how I read it.

Chet...as an American traveling in any foreign country that trades with Cuba, it's illegal for that American citizen to buy & smoke a CC in that country.

Not unless something changed I don't know about.

So where does he go to jail... abroad, or back in the U.S. for treason?

 

[kann]

I understand your point Kann, but are the stores selling them US Stores or are they Foreign Nation Stores?
Location does not really factor into it, all US Soldiers and Citizens should know the law, and as long as there are those from other Nations that can legaly purchase and consume Cuban Cigars the stores are well within their rights to sell them.
Americans should not be buying them as it is against OUR laws. We also should not roll stop signs, or cook meth....it comes down to reward versus risk.

or at least that is my point of view on it.

Tim

Grateful and IP, I cannot vouch for authenticity, personally, to be honest. I don't go in there very often, but next time I'm around there I will definitely ask their source. That is interesting about someone finding one on a mil installation from a supposed-legit source such as a foreign government facility.

MX, you are absolutely correct. The original point I was trying to make was that of the interests of Uncle Sam. You can't go half a day without having to acknowledge some sort of warning/briefing on POLICY, yet I have never, ever seen or heard anything briefed pertaining to this federal LAW. Every day I am reminded of the quiet hours policy here on base. Leadership makes sure that their people know to be quiet after 2200 so little babies and office workers can sleep peacefully. Ensuring compliance with a global-spanning federal law isn't too high on the "things to do today" list for those in charge, it appears. I'm not questioning whether it's right, wrong, or indifferent. Just a pertinent observation.

So what you're saying is that the US military is no longer concerned about "trading with the enemy"?

I'd say it's more of a priority thing on bases in Iraq and Afghanistan. Plus, they are fake.

The Afghan bases are NATO and not US, so them being available there is not an issue. I think there's more of a possibility those in the Dutch, Canadian, etc. stores are real, but who knows for sure...

So buying a cigar, produced by a US "enemy" - even though it's being sold by the Dutch - is OK?

I'm not sure if I'm just misunderstanding you, but I'm talking about Germany, specifically, right now. Though I have seen CC's available on just about every US installation abroad (both prime locations and shit holes), albeit in foreign tenant component shops. I believe Guam (a US territory, in itself) was the only one I cannot recall seeing or purchasing cuban cigars at any of the Navy or Air Force installations. I can also say that I saw them available in one particular US embassy's commissary/shoppette, though we were warned they were undoubtedly fakes.

Again, not commenting on the legality or morality of it all. Just an observation in my travels.

 

[MX]

Althought this topic has some what derailed, I do hope you found something to your liking to try.

San Cristobal de la Habana are ver nice smokes imho, and a good introduction as well as Sancho Panza

Tim

 

[Gonz]

To muddy the waters a bit more for everyone, the excuse of, "But it's a fake" does not fly, and you still are not allowed by law to do it.

 

[Blue Dragon]

Chet...as an American traveling in any foreign country that trades with Cuba, it's illegal for that American citizen to buy & smoke a CC in that country.

Not unless something changed I don't know about.

This is correct, to the best of my knowledge.

Still Illegal. I actually read the law about 2 days ago. I have no idea what possessed me to do it.

Yea .. and it is even illegal to purchase any product that passed through Cuba, or any raw materials that have originated from or passed through Cuba. .. Now how the hell are you supposed to track that in a Global Economy?


*edit: Makes me wonder about fish coming out of the Caribbean Sea. You have to figure some are pretty migratory, and there have to be some that have eaten food or smaller fish out of Cuban waters but have been caught .. around the tip of Florida? Fishermen in Florida must all be terrorist supporters! .. That's the ticket.

 

[ggiese]

So buying a cigar, produced by a US "enemy" - even though it's being sold by the Dutch - is OK?

If you're Dutch or Canadian or anything but US, sure. That's why you can see them for sale on NATO installations.

I'm confused. I thought we were talking US military, not Dutch or Canadian military.

 

[JHolmes763]

You're confused because you're trying to play devil's advocate for everything I say.

Is the US military concerned about "trading with the enemy" in regard to Cuba, on bases in Iraq and Afghanistan? In my personal, non-representative of the military view-point, no, they are not concerned. They have larger concerns.

Even if they did care and made an effort, the cigars will still be available because these are mostly non-US bases with other countries present. Those country's citizens are free to buy cuban smokes all they want. Just like the British and Aussie areas of bases are free to serve alcohol.

They could treat the issue like alcohol and address it in a General Order, but they don't. Maybe they don't know or they just don't care.

 

[ggiese]

I understand your point Kann, but are the stores selling them US Stores or are they Foreign Nation Stores?
Location does not really factor into it, all US Soldiers and Citizens should know the law, and as long as there are those from other Nations that can legaly purchase and consume Cuban Cigars the stores are well within their rights to sell them.
Americans should not be buying them as it is against OUR laws. We also should not roll stop signs, or cook meth....it comes down to reward versus risk.

or at least that is my point of view on it.

Tim

Grateful and IP, I cannot vouch for authenticity, personally, to be honest. I don't go in there very often, but next time I'm around there I will definitely ask their source. That is interesting about someone finding one on a mil installation from a supposed-legit source such as a foreign government facility.

MX, you are absolutely correct. The original point I was trying to make was that of the interests of Uncle Sam. You can't go half a day without having to acknowledge some sort of warning/briefing on POLICY, yet I have never, ever seen or heard anything briefed pertaining to this federal LAW. Every day I am reminded of the quiet hours policy here on base. Leadership makes sure that their people know to be quiet after 2200 so little babies and office workers can sleep peacefully. Ensuring compliance with a global-spanning federal law isn't too high on the "things to do today" list for those in charge, it appears. I'm not questioning whether it's right, wrong, or indifferent. Just a pertinent observation.

So what you're saying is that the US military is no longer concerned about "trading with the enemy"?

Not sure what your saying here, honestly, I am confused not trying to be a smart ass at all.....

Trading with the enemy is not an issue, Joint Bases are not US bases, and they can sell what ever they like. US Soldieres and Citizens SHOULD NOT be breaking the law, so there for they SHOULD NOT be trading with the enemy. The reality of the situation is that it does happen, right or wrong, it happens. People will tend to do what they think they can get away with. I was told a long time ago by a "Crusty" Sergeant Major that we all do the wrong thing for 1 of 2 reasons. We don't know, or we don't care......if you are reading this thread you have lost one of those reasons.....

Tim

I'm a bit confused about your confusion. I apologize in advance that I'm posting a verbose response to your confusion. I'm hoping this helps to you understand what appears to be obvious, but may not be clear...

As I undersand it, you were telling our community that US military personnel were purchasing and smoking Cuban cigars on military installations outside of the US. And - that it was a rule not obviously enforced by military leadership. Your experience suggested that while there was fairly strict enforcement of some rules - this was a rule that, because of its lack of "obvious" enforcement meant to you that military leadership gave tacit approval for soldiers to smoke Cuban cigars. I'm not familiar enough with your personal situation to understand that you knew it was wrong to buy and/or possess Cuban cigars - or that you truly did not know that the law clearly prohibits any US citizen from purchasing Cuban product EVEN if they're outside of the US. But - now you know.

The OFAC link in this thread makes the law very clear. Regardless what your personal beliefs are concerning the Cuban regime, the fact is that the US government considers Cuba as an "enemy". That was the basis of the US laws which created the Cuban embargo, and the consideration that buying Cuban products was "trading with the enemy".

Quite a few soldiers I know have made it very clear to me that I am NOT to ship them any Cuban cigars because they would be subject to military discipline if they were found to be in possession of Cuban cigars - because it was considered, "trading with the enemy". Even (and especially) while they on deployment outside of the US.

So - what I'm saying - I believe your experience is contrary to what the actual accepted standard is in the military. Much like law enforcement in the US, there likely is not a concerted effort to enforce the embargo - but there are instances of those that have suffered fines, jail and other consequences for violating the established law. And - being in the military can result in additional, more severe consequences those in the civilian sector would suffer. If I were in the military serving in a foreign deployment and knowing I could suffer military discipline for purchasing, possessing or smoking Cuban cigars - I would have to weigh the value of violating the rule. I would also be awfully careful about advising my peers there is "no big deal" if you the rule if violated - you might be wrong.

 

[ggiese]

You're confused because you're trying to play devil's advocate for everything I say.

Is the US military concerned about "trading with the enemy" in regard to Cuba, on bases in Iraq and Afghanistan? In my personal, non-representative of the military view-point, no, they are not concerned. They have larger concerns.

Even if they did care and made an effort, the cigars will still be available because these are mostly non-US bases with other countries present. Those country's citizens are free to buy cuban smokes all they want. Just like the British and Aussie areas of bases are free to serve alcohol.

They could treat the issue like alcohol and address it in a General Order, but they don't. Maybe they don't know or they just don't care.

"Black Marketing" in the military at a foreign post is "frowned upon", but also not generally enforced. However - I'd beg you consult with those that have been subject to military discipline because they violated the rule. I believe they'll tell you they are not comforted by the fact that the rule is not always enforced.

 

[JHolmes763]

I have never seen or heard of anyone in the military punished for Cuban smokes. Laws are laws, though, and it'd be trivial to get someone in trouble for this if you really wanted to or felt obligated to, though.

ETA: Who should I send a PM or email to, so that I can learn of the situation concerning their punishment?

 

[ilikefishes]

I just hope the OP eventually found something to smoke. It seems stupid to me to get into this discussion. Like we as a country need to worry about our military smoking CC's whilst they have some time to do. Of course the next day they have to go back out and dodge IED's and mortar shells.
Hard to believe this is or ever has been enforced.
Sent from my DROIDX

 

[BlindedByScience]

I just hope the OP eventually found something to smoke. It seems stupid to me to get into this discussion. Like we as a country need to worry about our military smoking CC's whilst they have some time to do. Of course the next day they have to go back out and dodge IED's and mortar shells.
Hard to believe this is or ever has been enforced.
Sent from my DROIDX

As the parent of a US Marine, I can assure you that while you think this whole discussion was "stupid" it was, IMHO, worthwhile to remind folks of the laws in effect.

While I will agree that the brave folks serving have grave issues to concern themselves with, I can also assure you that they do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which laws and orders they follow. Violating the "Trading With The Enemy" act is not a good one to have on your record.....

B.B.S.

 

[BlindedByScience]

I have never seen or heard of anyone in the military punished for Cuban smokes. Laws are laws, though, and it'd be trivial to get someone in trouble for this if you really wanted to or felt obligated to, though.

ETA: Who should I send a PM or email to, so that I can learn of the situation concerning their punishment?

What's your point? Do you not believe that the "Trading With The Enemy" act is real, or enforced...?? Are you arguing the point for sport, or do you really think it's "OK because 'no one' ever gets caught"..??

I send smokes to troops (mine included) all the time. Never would I send something that would get any of these fine folks in trouble.

Think of it another way.....ever violated the speed limit (be honest)..? Ever? Did you get caught, each and every time you did? Does the fact that not every speeder gets caught make it OK to speed?

B.B.S.

 

[grateful1]

1) it is not legal for a US Citzen to buy Cuban products either direct or thru any party
2) If you do not understand "1)'...read the law.

This is not a grey area....it IS black and white.

If you don't understand the law after you've read it...pm ggiese and hel'll explain!

:thumbs:





side note - taking bands off is not frowned upon for 'shipping'!

 

[JHolmes763]

What's your point?

Yes it's illegal. Just like jaywalking.

 

[ilikefishes]

I just hope the OP eventually found something to smoke. It seems stupid to me to get into this discussion. Like we as a country need to worry about our military smoking CC's whilst they have some time to do. Of course the next day they have to go back out and dodge IED's and mortar shells.
Hard to believe this is or ever has been enforced.
Sent from my DROIDX

As the parent of a US Marine, I can assure you that while you think this whole discussion was "stupid" it was, IMHO, worthwhile to remind folks of the laws in effect.

While I will agree that the brave folks serving have grave issues to concern themselves with, I can also assure you that they do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which laws and orders they follow. Violating the "Trading With The Enemy" act is not a good one to have on your record.....

B.B.S.

Blinded, I agree with you 100%. My point was that the OP is a civilian in London and wants to purchase some CC'S. Why we got into a discussion about the military is not clear. I do agree that if it is illegal, then you probably shouldn't do it. Especially if you can get court marshaled for treason against your country. The consequences for our military is far more severe than it is for me or you. I personally only own fakes, or so I have been informed.

I did not mean to offend you or anybody else by calling this discussion stupid. I should have used a better word and I thank your son for his service to our country and fighting for my rights to be on a board like this and express my opinions, misguided as they might be. Have a great day sir.

 

[grateful1]

I do agree that if it is illegal, then you probably shouldn't do it.

Are you uncertain about the legality of buying Cuban products?