A Reminder....

[DevilsMilk]

Actually, to be more correct, they were Soviet missles, not Russian missles, and the USSR exists no longer...furthermore, that was over 40 years ago...isn't it time to let that go? Don't you think it's time to give up an embargo that doesn't bother Fidel one wit, but punishes the Cuban people instead? They're the ones that are really suffering because of our embargo...they can't get medical supplies from us, or food, or anything basic unless it's an emergency and then only through the humanitarian agencies...who are we punishing with this embargo and what good does it serve?

:sign:

C'mon people...think about this logically...and I'm as red-blooded American as the next guy...it's just that there's no sense to this thing anymore...it's time has passed...

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If its only affecting the Cuban people then they should think about over throwing their government. That sounds logical to me. I am too a red-blooded American and agree with the Embargo. Sorry fourty years means what when it comes to the same man still in power.. I see your points and they are valid but are fueled only by the love of the cigar (Cuban cigar).

 

[DevilsMilk]

Sorry about calling them Russian missles when they were Soviet.

 

[Neuromancer]

Maybe a lot of you are too young to remember all the facts of what really went down there but I am old enough to remember when it all happened, and while I might be wrong (and I admit it) I have heard that we gave Castro funding (through the CIA) to help him overthrow Batista because we figured we could manipulate him easier..then, after the revolution, when he was trying to deal with a country of starving people and asked us for aid, we basically said we helped you take over, now deal with it, and left him hanging out to dry til the Soviets stepped in...sort of the same thing we did with Ho Chi Minh, as we were the ones who taught him and armed him to help fight the Japanese in WW2 and then told him to get lost when he wanted freedom from the French, our great "buddies!"

 

[DevilsMilk]

Maybe a lot of you are too young to remember all the facts of what really went down there but I am old enough to remember when it all happened, and while I might be wrong (and I admit it) I have heard that we gave Castro funding (through the CIA) to help him overthrow Batista because we figured we could manipulate him easier..then, after the revolution, when he was trying to deal with a country of starving people and asked us for aid, we basically said we helped you take over, now deal with it, and left him hanging out to dry til the Soviets stepped in...sort of the same thing we did with Ho Chi Minh, as we were the ones who taught him and armed him to help fight the Japanese in WW2 and then told him to get lost when he wanted freedom from the French, our great "buddies!"

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I dont know about all this as it seems to sound like alot of fallacious arguements. And yes I will give it to you that I am young and it was before my time.

Oh and the Soviets stepped in. They sure did at a marked up price to the Cubans.

 

[Neuromancer]

My feelings about this have nothing to do with whether I like Cuban cigars or not...I would feel the same way if there were no such thing...as I live in southern Florida and have many Cuban friends, I find that quite a lot of them feel the same way..all this nonsense keeps them from their families that remain in Cuba, and keeps their families starving for food and medical supplies...do you have any idea how many US Cubans (naturalized and born-here both) send USD to their families there to try and help out even though it's illegal? This embargo has gotten to be one of the stupidist policies our government has supported in a long time, and before you accuse me of being a bleeding-heart liberal, let me assure you I am not..I am, however, what you might call a true middle-of-the-roader, as I look for logic in our governmental policies (yeah, right!), not party affiliation...

 

[DevilsMilk]

I agree with you on the part of our government policies and how some of them are way out of line. I feel for those that have to do that in order to help their families, I truely do. I would not accuse you of being a liberal , Not yet at least.. LOL.

Seriously while I support embargo (And not because I am a right wing nut job) but for reasons of personal belief I truly feel for the Cuban people and their lack of liberties that American's have. But to put it into perspective how about they rise up and over throw the government and help themselves. I am all for helping others only when they are willing to help themselves in the process. I know this may sound or come across in a horrible way but I mean it in the most heart felt way.

Lets say we both had a mutual friend that needed $100 for food. Both of us would do what we could to help them out, right? I would until I found out he has done this to his other friends only to keep from working to earn $100.

That may be a bad example but I see it as the closest I can get to how I see the Cuban Government and it's citizens.

 

[Neuromancer]

Cuba is a communist state, right? That's socialism with a gun at your back...Castro owns the police and the army...how would it be possible for such an impovrished people to overthrow him? There's no way, and if we don't do something such as ending the embargo (or really anything to alleviate the problem) it's going to get worse when Fidel meets his maker and his brother Raul takes over as he is a hard-line Marxist...this needs to be addressed now and not later...if we don't do something soon and it gets any worse, American citizens with families there are going to be crying for help for those families...and what then? Are we going to invade Cuba to protect the families of Americans? Just what we need...another IRAQ...can you just see how popular that will be on the world front and with all our anti-war left-wing loonies? To me, while it may seem like an easy solution to try, IMHO, I think we should lift the embargo as a test and see what happens...it may go a long way towards soothing relations with Fidel and getting them to become more humanitarian, but hey, it's just my opinion...I think it's really sorta stupid to keep looking at this little third world country/island as this "MAJOR ENEMY" when we trade so prolifically with the PRC and we know what kind of humanitarians they are...remember Tiananmen Square?

 

[moki]

Ahhh, the wonderful benefits of U.S. citzenship ain't it great. Just the tip of the iceberg really. It gets worse... much worse. The United States is one of only two countries in the world which taxes it citizens on worldwide income no matter where they live, do business, or exist. Guess which country is the second one!! Libya!! So, if you think you can just pack up and move to Canada and smoke all the Havana's you want think again. You can't even renounce citizenship to get completely around these issues.

In 1996, the U.S goverment passed legislation which requires taxation of worldwide income for ten years for citizens who even take the drastic step of renouncing citzenship if their net worth is over 250K or annual income is greater than 60K. Sad but true and it only going to get worse in the name of protecting us from terrorism.

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Given the relatively low rate of taxation in the USA, it does take some balls to bitch about taxes here. Try Denmark, for instance, where you reach the highest tax bracket of 60% of your income at what we'd consider to be a middle class wage... and toss in the 25% VAT, the 100% tax on vehicles... really, bitching about taxes here is plain silly.

 

[moki]

Yah...Cuba is definitly "a rogue state," and our "enemy"...lol...why I even hear they're getting ready to invade us...this embargo is ridiculous...we started the embargo because they are a "communist" country? Well then, how come Red China is one of our largest trading partners? Freedom is curtailed in China to an even greater measure than in Cuba...even the Cubans I talk to in Florida feel the whole thing is stupid..let our money flow in and people would overthrow Castro so fast he wouldn't know what hit him, just to get some share of the US$$$... ???

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China is more capitalistic than the USA in many regards... try visiting, you'll be amazed. If you really believe that freedom is curtailed more in China than in Cuba, all I can say is you've never been to either country. Flat out wrong.

 

[bigmac]

I thought we outlawed politics in here. :whistling:

 

[DevilsMilk]

Bigmac,

Sorry, I will be quite now

Actually I was done with my last post and hate when I ramble on like that. I am a sucker for politics.

 

[Matt R]

Why did we not embargo the Soviets?

Hmmm.... maybe because the USSR changed leaders and politics and Cuba did not. A better comparison will be to see what happens with Khadfi and Libya and contrast that to US/Cuban relations.

 

[Matt R]

I thought we outlawed politics in here. :whistling:

[snapback]213994[/snapback]​

Nope, just outlawed you from participating in political threads... so bugger off, hoser.... :laugh:

 

[Fyodor]

I thought we outlawed politics in here. :whistling:

[snapback]213994[/snapback]​

Trust me, if I was to give some of my opinions here Ron would be here directly to impose the no politics rule.

 

[Strayvector]

Given the relatively low rate of taxation in the USA, it does take some balls to bitch about taxes here. Try Denmark, for instance, where you reach the highest tax bracket of 60% of your income at what we'd consider to be a middle class wage... and toss in the 25% VAT, the 100% tax on vehicles... really, bitching about taxes here is plain silly.

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Living in Sweden, I'm always reminded what a great coumtry that I am a citizen of. I will never again bitch about taxes. By comparison, a 25% VAT, $94 for a tankful of 12 gallons of gas, and tax bracket of 55% makes the US a cheap place to live. Not to mention, the $8 beers.

Anyways, the legality of Cuban cigars really does not apply to me. Everyone says that 95% of Cuban cigars in the US are fakes. So take note, if you're going to start an ISOM pass, don't take me as a participant...all mine are fakes. :whistling:

 

[bigmac]

I thought we outlawed politics in here. :whistling:

[snapback]213994[/snapback]​

Nope, just outlawed you from participating in political threads... so bugger off, hoser.... :laugh:

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Not hardly i will participate if I desire.