A fake Cohiba exposed

[lbrief]

. . .and the results can be shared.

I was just giving you a hard time.
I figured the “sharing” part was a significant motivator.
Sharing is your M.O. from sharing your photos and reviews on CP, to your prolific high-end bombing runs. Hell, even your company is based on share-ware.
Thanks for sharing :thumbs:

 

[Triple_D]

A lady at work gave me a Cohiba DC that has the "La Habana, Cuba" printed bolder than normal. At least it looks bolder to me than what I'm used to. I'll have to check for the C and see what's up.

 

[lbrief]

No, font substitution for a brand name is not common at all.

Indeed, what many company's do is they take an existing typeface, and they customize it when they use it on their logos/brand names, for the explicit reason that it is not easy to fake by just typing it out with an off the shelf font (as well as to make their logo a bit distinctive).

That's what was done with the Cohiba logo as well. It's based on an off the shelf typeface, but it has been customized and tweaked.

Sorry Moki, but you couldn't be more wrong on this one. I've been typesetting and designing far longer than you've been reading about it.

The logo is a run-of-the-mill type face (in this case a demi version of Arial).
See for yourself:

Any tweaking (as you put it) was to the horizontal-scale. Which doesn't change the typeface from a font to a graphic.

It remains a typeface and it is easily substituted via the methode previously discussed.

 

[moki]

Sorry Moki, but you couldn't be more wrong on this one. I've been typesetting and designing far longer than you've been reading about it.

The logo is a run-of-the-mill type face (in this case a demi version of Arial).
See for yourself:

Any tweaking (as you put it) was to the horizontal-scale. Which doesn't change the typeface from a font to a graphic.

It remains a typeface and it is easily substituted via the methode previously discussed.

They've done more than just tweak the horizontal scale on it, though -- it's something many companies do. Apple, for instance. The typeface they use for the word "Apple" is a custom one that is derivative from Garamond -- this is exceedingly common for brand and company names. We did it for our logo as well.

 

[lbrief]

They've done more than just tweak the horizontal scale on it, though. . .

That's it? That's your response? :lookup:
I inform you that all they did was tweak the horizontal-scale, and your response is "no they did more than that". ???

Where do we go from here? I guess I can yell "did not" and you can yell "did too" untill my post count reaches a respectable size (or untill Rod or Dave lockes the thread).

Believe me. All that the Cohiba logo involves is a slight adjust to the horizontal scale. I even gave you a sample of the base font.

 

[moki]

That's it? That's your response? :lookup:
I inform you that all they did was tweak the horizontal-scale, and your response is "no they did more than that". ???

I've tried skewing the typeface; it doesn't match the bands I've scanned in. I don't know what else to say?

BTW, I DO consider skewing the typeface, changing the weight of the font, and adjusting the kerning to be "tweaking" it.

 

[lbrief]

I've tried skewing the typeface; it doesn't match the bands I've scanned in. I don't know what else to say?

BTW, I DO consider skewing the typeface, changing the weight of the font, and adjusting the kerning to be "tweaking" it.

1. You tried it and it didn’t work? WOW what a surprise. By your reasoning, if I (a non-programmer) fail to write a computer game, then it simply cannot be done. Look, you’re not a pro, therefore you have neither the skills nor the tools required to successfully manipulate the typestyle. Also, it’s quite possible that you don’t even have the proper typestyle, which reinforces my point re: font substitution.

2. You do consider manipulating the font to be tweaking it. So what? Go back to my lesson on font substitution and reread it. It matters not whether a font is tweaked, if it remains a font then it is susceptible to substitution. Your only shot at discrediting my post is to argue that the font has been literally converted from typeface to graphic. And, it simply has not. It is a typeface, it is prone to substitution, and the band is still counterfeit nonetheless.

Thanks for the debate though, it’s been too long since the last one. :thumbs:

 

[moki]

1. You tried it and it didn’t work? WOW what a surprise. By your reasoning, if I (a non-programmer) fail to write a computer game, then it simply cannot be done. Look, you’re not a pro, therefore you have neither the skills nor the tools required to successfully manipulate the typestyle. Also, it’s quite possible that you don’t even have the proper typestyle, which reinforces my point re: font substitution.

2. You do consider manipulating the font to be tweaking it. So what? Go back to my lesson on font substitution and reread it. It matters not whether a font is tweaked, if it remains a font then it is susceptible to substitution. Your only shot at discrediting my post is to argue that the font has been literally converted from typeface to graphic. And, it simply has not. It is a typeface, it is prone to substitution, and the band is still counterfeit nonetheless.

Thanks for the debate though, it’s been too long since the last one. :thumbs:

Actually, lbrief, I got started with computers by designing typefaces, so I do know a thing or two about designing type, how it works, what font substitution is, etc, etc. I don't need a lesson in it, thank you. In fact given that you stated you have been in the business for 15 years, I was designing typefaces for money before you were designing anything at all.

My father owned an advertising agency with an art department, and I used to design PostScript fonts (type 1 and type 3) that I packaged and sold for a living. Sure beat flipping hamburgers. I started programming as a way to package the fonts for sale, it was quite incidental. I have zero formal computer training, and quite a bit of formal (and practical) design training.

I also studied quite a bit of graphic design in college. As a Photography major, I was required to take many of the same courses that design students took. Please don't be patronizing.

It is nonsense to state that I don't have the "skills" to manipulate type; I used to *design* typefaces. Now, does that mean that it isn't possible to match the Cohiba logo exactly just by stretching the type block? Not necessarily, I didn't spend much time doing it -- but simply stretching the font in Illustrator didn't line up exactly when I tried it.

As for the font substitution issue, any graphic designer worth their salt knows that you embed the actual typefaces you use into the PostScript output that's then downloaded to the printer. If you don't do this, you're a rank amateur, and you deserve to run into font substitution issues.

To believe that this could simply be a result of font substitution, we'd have to believe that the designers in the multi-billion dollar industry that is the cigar industry in Cuba don't know enough about printing bands (something they've been doing for decades) that they don't embed the proper font in the document (???) or *if* they didn't embed the font for some strange reason, the press they are printing to doesn't have the proper font natively there.

Either argument is ridiculous. To embed the font, all you do is click a checkbox. To think that the press they are using doesn't have the proper font for a major brand is likewise ridiculous.

Stating that the font "simply has not" been transformed into outlines is something you just *do not know*. Many, many designers do exactly that -- convert type to an outline, so they can tweak it, distort it, or do whatever they want to it. That's what was done for our logo, for the DWF logo, and for countless others.

Indeed, at a fundamental level, everything on a PostScript printer/press is nothing *but* outlines. Fonts are merely dictionaries of outlines that are encoded for convenience sake. I've actually worked on PostScript interpreters as well.

 

[moki]

I smoked the fake Cohiba tonight, side by side with a Siglo V -- man if the band wasn't enough, the taste of that thing sure gave it away. incredibly harsh draw, with none of the subtle sweetness and trademark Cohiba flavors.

I've had fake Cubans that didn't taste half bad; this was not one of them. I smoked about 1/2 an inch, then tossed it. Blech.

 

[lbrief]

Well, I typed a long replay, and I let you have it with both barrels, but then I clicked delete.

Look, I appreciate that you have some experience in the industry. But, you need to take my word for it that things no longer work the way they once did.
As a computer expert, you should realize that if you sit out any computer sector for more than a year, you’re out. period.

Well, it goes double for graphic design. Back when I started, and when your dad had an agency, it was a world of photostats and exacto knives. Now we are light years beyond, and things change everyday.

Suffice to say, your argument was once valid, and might still have advocates. But, to suggest that it is unimpeachable or that I may be a designer “not worth his salt”, well. . . that goes too far.

I will assume you were excepting present company, and suggest we conclude the matter.

I look forward to meeting in a different contest of wit, in the near future.

My kindest regards.

 

[lbrief]

Hi there, me again.

No I'm not being a smart ass, and I know this is a bit of a thread jack, but. . .

What fonts did you design? Any chance I've got a few in my collection? It would be neat to say I knew the designer.

If not, what do you have that's uncommon and interesting? Always looking for more. :thumbs:

 

[moki]

Look, I appreciate that you have some experience in the industry. But, you need to take my word for it that things no longer work the way they once did.
As a computer expert, you should realize that if you sit out any computer sector for more than a year, you’re out. period.

Well, it goes double for graphic design. Back when I started, and when your dad had an agency, it was a world of photostats and exacto knives. Now we are light years beyond, and things change everyday.

Suffice to say, your argument was once valid, and might still have advocates. But, to suggest that it is unimpeachable or that I may be a designer “not worth his salt”, well. . . that goes too far.

Perhaps your memory is a bit foggy? PostScript printers were introduced in 1985 along with PageMaker -- neither I nor my father were using exacto knives approximately 20 years ago. I was designing digital typefaces -- granted, desktop publishing was in its infancy, but it hasn't changed all that much, and not everyone was using exacto knives back then. Perhaps this will help you?

http://www.computerhope.com/history/198090.htm

First of all, the technology that's being used actually hasn't changed much. You're still basing everything on PostScript output devices. Granted, PostScript has undergone several revisions, but it's fundamentally the same technology. Regardless, to state that I have not kept up with technology is simply untrue -- as part of my daily job, I work with graphic designers every day. My girlfriend just graduated with a masters in the field as well.

I never said YOU weren't worth your salt; that was not a personal attack. What I said is true. If the person doing the print job doesn't embed the fonts they are using in the document, or doesn't check to see if the fonts aren't available on the chosen output device, they are a rank amateur.

To believe that the Cohiba factory, or whomever they outsource their printing to, is not aware of these issues, and that the band could be real and all that happened is just "font substitution" is ridiculous.

Indeed, most *modern* programs warn you if the output device doesn't have the proper font installed.

In order for font substitution to happen, the following things must be true:

-- The font that was used to create the original design must not be present on the resulting output device
-- The font that was used to create the original design is not set to embed along with the document

This is something that has not changed since the first laser printer was introduced in 1985. Technology has gotten a bit better at masking this by using things like Adobe's multiple master fonts to mimic the chosen typefaces, but the problem remains fundamentally the same.

If you have *anything* you can say to refute this, please do. And please, enough with the condescending attitude -- I was extremely aware of the issues that we're discussing about 20 years ago, and I am still extremely aware of them today.

First you mocked me, saying I didn't have a clue about fonts/graphic design -- which is untrue. Then you condescendingly insinuated that I don't have a clue about current technology. That is untrue as well. How about we debate the issue at hand here, instead of taking pot shots, especially when you don't have any idea what I do or do not know concerning the matter.

You tell me where I'm wrong on the font substitution issue.

 

[Lumberg]

This is the most enjoyable thread I have read on here in months.

lbrief, dust off that "double barrelled" attack!

 

[Josh]

Bah Lumberg, no need to throw gas on the fire.

Here's what I learned: Condescending insinuations are bad, cigars are good.

Would it hurt to leave it at that? ???

 

[PuroBrat]

Wouldn't hurt at all from where I sit Wildcard. :lookup:

 

[lbrief]

You have done a far better job of exposing and embarrassed yourself than I ever could.
Where to start? Well, I don't have a lot of time so I'll take some random pot shots.

Fonts are not "embedded" you sound like a hack for suggesting so.

You don't have a clue as to real world design and publishing. Your arguments are based on what you read in books. All theory, no practice

That you dabbled in something before I embarked on a career is irrelevant. Based on your logic. Since I was in the Army for 2 years (more than 15 years ago), if someone on this board who has been in for the last 10 years straight tells me that they use carbines now, I can confidently counter “no, you are wrong! I was in the Army and I know for a fact that they only use rifles.”

Moki, I tried to be gentlemanly with you. I even tried to let you suggest that you know as much about my business as I do. In other words, I tried to let you bow out with grace.

But you are like a ground hog who wants to live under my porch no matter what. I don’t want it under my porch, so I stand in it’s way. But, it keeps coming. So, I whack it gently with a stick. It keeps coming, So I whack it harder with a stick. It keeps coming. Finally, I realize, I’ll have to “kill” this thing or accept it living under the porch. Since it is too darn cute to kill, I’ll live with it.

Moki, I whacked you lightly a couple of times. And you keep coming back with ridiculous knowledge that you either gleaned from a summer job, or cut and pasted off the net. Post what you want. Your too darn cute, and I’ve decided to live with you.

Best regards

 

[moki]

You have done a far better job of exposing and embarrassed yourself than I ever could.
Where to start? Well, I don't have a lot of time so I'll take some random pot shots.

Fonts are not "embedded" you sound like a hack for suggesting so.

You don't have a clue as to real world design and publishing. Your arguments are based on what you read in books. All theory, no practice

That you dabbled in something before I embarked on a career is irrelevant. Based on your logic. Since I was in the Army for 2 years (more than 15 years ago), if someone on this board who has been in for the last 10 years straight tells me that they use carbines now, I can confidently counter “no, you are wrong! I was in the Army and I know for a fact that they only use rifles.”

Moki, I tried to be gentlemanly with you. I even tried to let you suggest that you know as much about my business as I do. In other words, I tried to let you bow out with grace.

But you are like a ground hog who wants to live under my porch no matter what. I don’t want it under my porch, so I stand in it’s way. But, it keeps coming. So, I whack it gently with a stick. It keeps coming, So I whack it harder with a stick. It keeps coming. Finally, I realize, I’ll have to “kill” this thing or accept it living under the porch. Since it is too darn cute to kill, I’ll live with it.

Moki, I whacked you lightly a couple of times. And you keep coming back with ridiculous knowledge that you either gleaned from a summer job, or cut and pasted off the net. Post what you want. Your too darn cute, and I’ve decided to live with you.

Best regards

You've come back with absolutely nothing of substance, but yet more condescending personal attacks. Since this is what people generally devolve to when they've lost an argument and are too proud to admit it, I'll assume you've realized you've lost.

If you actually care to debate me on the issue, instead of using ad-hominem attacks, please do.

As for the one actual point you've raised, that of embedding fonts, are you trying to say that you're not aware of the ability to embed fonts in documents, so that when you take them from computer to computer, the same fonts are available, regardless of what is installed on the computer?

If you're not aware of this, you should read up on it. The terminology is correct, and it is distinct from downloading the typeface to the output device.

Oh, and for the record, I've never read any books or web sites on this material. It is all real-world experience. If you can manage it, try arguing with substance, and sans personal attacks, or making up yet more things that you have no idea about.

First you claimed I had no design experience, and mocked me for it. This is untrue. Second you tried to claim that my knowledge was obsolete, and mocked me for it. This was also untrue. Finally, you've decided to haughtily claim I'm wrong, and that anything I know is from a book or a web site. This too is untrue.

That's three distinct phases of making up a straw-man argument against someone, and fabricating knowledge that you simply don't possess. You don't know what experience I do or don't have, and your three attempts at mischaracterizing it are all wrong.

Through all of this, I am still waiting for you to demonstrate the masterful knowledge you claim to possess, and for you to show me the err of my ways. I've yet to see any substance whatever.

 

[lbrief]

are you trying to say that you're not aware of the ability to embed fonts in documents, so that when you take them from computer to computer, the same fonts are available, regardless of what is installed on the computer?

If you're not aware of this, you should read up on it.

This is what I’m talking about. All theory and no practice.
The technology to embed fonts is perfect and works well in a magazine article (usually ghost written by the product developer). But in practice, it simply is not there yet.
News flash there’s also no such thing as a commercial quality digital camera for less than $10K; there’s no such thing as a universal color profile; there’s no such thing as Santa; should I go on?

As far as substance, I refer you (once again) to my original post, it contains everything you need, and has yet to be accurately disputed.

As far as credentials, I submit to you, the ad I did for DaveWF. You have claimed knowledge in this area, but where are your credentials? Your logo was created by a freelancer not you.

For those, that did get the groundhog analogy. It means Moki needs to get the last word or it will absolutely crush him. You’ve seen him in action on these boards, and God knows you’ve seen him in action on CF. Someone, needs to take the high road here. And, since I am dangerously close to sounding like an S.O.B. I shall now bow out.

Moki may post away. I will not respond. I am a slug, who knows nothing of graphic design. I hide behind a computer because I am ashamed. I have been exposed as a fraud and I don’t deserve to be welcomed at CP any longer. Please, Please, Please, Rod delete my account for I have disgraced the board with my presence. I beg the forgiveness of you all.

 

[moki]

To summarize, before you launched into personal attacks, you claimed that this could simply be a font substitution error, something you claim is incredibly common. I've rebutted this point with the following:

1) There are many software packages out there that will preflight documents for you; indeed, modern versions of most DTP applications will alert you of two things:

a) When a document is opened on a machine that does not contain the fonts that are used in the document
b) When a document is printed to a PostScript output device that does not have a particular font available

Most software packages in the case of b) will automatically download the appropriate fonts to the output device. In the case of a), you can embed the fonts with the document, use one of the many preflight packages available for doing print sanity checks, or use a modern package that notifies you when a document is opened with missing fonts.

If you're sending a raw PDF file to the printer, to avoid having to deal with them having the proper software packages available, you can indeed embed the fonts in the PDF. This ensures that when the PDF is printed, all of the proper fonts are there.

If you're not aware of embeding fonts into a PDF, you should be. It certainly adds to the size, but it's well worth it to avoid such error. Many DTP packages also allow fonts to be embedded in their documents, to avoid just such issues from arising.

Since you seem unfamiliar with the term "embed", here's some reference for you:

http://economics.ca/help/pdf.html

An excerpt:

The Fonts Job Options menu specifies the fonts that will be embedded in a PDF file. To ensure that the PDF file you create is fully portable and readable on computers that may not have the same fonts installed, you should embed all fonts to guarantee that none are missed. To set the Fonts Job Options

As stated, other popular file formats (Quark, etc) allow for the exact same type of embedding to be done in the EPS files they output.

2) Any person along the chain from graphic designer to pre-press technician who does not notices these issues of missing fonts is a rank amateur. There are numerous ways to avoid the issue of font substitution, and indeed, modern software packages make it such that you have to go well out of your way (ignoring appropriate features) to end up with a font substitution problem.

Please, rebut these points.

 

[moki]

This is what I’m talking about. All theory and no practice.
The technology to embed fonts is perfect and works well in a magazine article (usually ghost written by the product developer). But in practice, it simply is not there yet.

I'm sorry, was it not you who said Fonts are not "embedded" you sound like a hack for suggesting so?

You're now using the term, but now instead of trying to tell me I'm using the wrong term (and insulting me for it), you're instead saying that the technology isn't there yet. This will be very interesting news for Adobe and Quark; I have friends who work at both companies on various products that rely on said technology.

Are you seriously trying to claim that there is any difference between a font that is installed on a computer, and a font that is embedded in a document? You do realize that embedding a font merely encodes the actual binary representation of the font from the host computer system into a binary object in the file? It's the exact same thing

PDF and EPS files the world over depend on the embedding of fonts; they'd be fairly useless without the capability, because the display of the document would be at the mercy of the fonts the host computer/output device has installed. Hell, even the government figured it out (the PDF tax forms you get from the IRS have embedded fonts in them).

Well, at least you've come around to realizing that embedding fonts is the proper term, that's something.

News flash there’s also no such thing as a commercial quality digital camera for less than $10K; there’s no such thing as a universal color profile; there’s no such thing as Santa; should I go on?

Another straw-man argument. I never mentioned anything about digital cameras (though given my background, I dare say I'm intimately familiar with them) or universal color profiles.

As far as substance, I refer you (once again) to my original post, it contains everything you need, and has yet to be accurately disputed.

It was disputed in my post prior to this; and I still maintain that for font substitution to be what caused the band to look as it does would be to assume that a bunch of utterly incompetent people are working for SA. It's extremely hard to screw up not having the proper fonts installed with any modern computer package -- many alert you when you open the document that you don't have the proper fonts installed. Quark has a nice pre-flighting system built-in that makes it hard to miss errors such as this.

However, let's say we have incompetent morons running the art and pre-press departments, and somehow they manage to screw up not having the proper font installed for a major brand label that they're printing. And they just so happened to ignore any warnings from the software they are using, or they are ignorant of the ability to embed fonts, or they just saw a window on the screen, and clicked "OK"

Fine. Then they look at the proof. Are you seriously telling me that no one will spot such an error? Yes, it can be subtle, but this is a major brand name we're talking about. All of this is so utterly unlikely.

As far as credentials, I submit to you, the ad I did for DaveWF. You have claimed knowledge in this area, but where are your credentials? Your logo was created by a freelancer not you.

I agree that the ad you created for DaveWF is nice, but let's not make mountains out of molehills. First, the typeface my friend used to create the logo for him was indeed turned into an outline and edited/tweaked in that manner, not as a font (thanks for reminding me).

Second, the ad you did is clean and fine, but it uses a piece of stock photography for the background (the keyboard -- I hope you properly licensed it), has a gradient, a bulleted set of points, the logo my friend created, and a box at the bottom with address and slogan info. It's nice, clean, etc., but it isn't exactly rocket science in design terms.

Finally, what does having created an ad have anything to do with whether you're right or wrong on the issues we're debating?

For those, that did get the groundhog analogy. It means Moki needs to get the last word or it will absolutely crush him. You’ve seen him in action on these boards, and God knows you’ve seen him in action on CF. Someone, needs to take the high road here. And, since I am dangerously close to sounding like an S.O.B. I shall now bow out.

Excuse me, lbrief, but are you not the one who started making this personal and insulting? This isn't about having the last word, it's about me not taking crap from you for no reason.