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Questionable ethics and monetary equality

Its rather simple really, theres multiple ways to figure the equality of various items and you could talk all day till your blue in the face or have written a book. If its a GB respect the host and if you don't like there decision don't do business, that however is not to negate the fact that everything should be disclosed up front. If its your own purchase from a vendor, while it is what it is, 5 free sticks worth X amount, who are we to tell someone what they can/cant do with there purchase.
 
CgarDan said:
First of a question to Wilkey:

How is a trade any different from a sale. In both cases you are getting something of equal value. Money in itself is nothing but a tool to trade goods or services. So what is the difference between selling an object for say $100 or trading for a good that is worth $100.

Another question.

Using the same scenario that Dave gave. Let's say a few weeks after the purchase you want to lighten your inventory and perhaps recoup some money to purchase more cigars in the future or simply get more cigars now to have more variety. And instead of the VI you want to unload say 2 5ers of 2 other boxes that were part of that purchase. Remember you got say 4 boxes total and 10 VIs for free. So how would you figure out the value of those 5ers if the boxes are worth different amounts. ( EX. $230, $250, $310, $200 + 10 Free VIs )
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Bravo,

You have cut directly to the heart of the matter. Well done, Dan!

For me, ethical assessments start in the gut and then invite intellectual exploration. For some reason, I "feel" it would be wrong to sell the premiums. But for some reason (which, one might think, must be related to the first reason) I "feel" it would be OK for one to trade these goods. Is it because of the conversion from that which is noble (cigars) to that which is dirty (money)? Or is there some other reason? I don't know. I wish I had the time to explore the philosophical and practical issues behind this but right now, I just don't have the time. Perhaps someone else will take up the challenge?

I also just wanted to respond to Mrepp's post. I am not a believer in an unfettered free market. And especially not in this particular community where so much is made of honor, honesty, respect, regard, truthfulness, fairness, etc. I've made the point in the past that such a system does not necessarily include an ethical component. It is up to the sensibilities of the community to provide that ethical component and in so doing, delimit that which is allowable and that which is not. A market system only provides for what is economically rational, not what one ought or ought not do.

Wilkey
 
Any of us who have been around for a while have some "free with purchase" stuff laying around. In some cases, it's clutter, or "try these" smokes, or something we really want and yes, free shipping falls into this category. In all these cases, we paid for those items as part of the price of what we ordered.

The question I would have to ask myself is, "would I have purchased what I purchased for the same price if the freebie wasn't included?"

If the answer is no, then the freebie has value and I shouldn't feel bad about recovering that value. If the answer is yes, then the freebie has no value to me and if I don't want it I should find someone who does and give it to them.
 
I should get the box because I am the....sorry...I thought this was Al's thread for a free box of cigars.


Friends don't let friends smoke for free. I hope you get the point of the thread and don't run a GB for that free box. In the end, it'll end up costing more than the purchase price if you know what I mean.
 
Ginseng said:
I also just wanted to respond to Mrepp's post. I am not a believer in an unfettered free market. And especially not in this particular community where so much is made of honor, honesty, respect, regard, truthfulness, fairness, etc. I've made the point in the past that such a system does not necessarily include an ethical component. It is up to the sensibilities of the community to provide that ethical component and in so doing, delimit that which is allowable and that which is not. A market system only provides for what is economically rational, not what one ought or ought not do.

Wilkey
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Ok let me tackle the first part. First and formost I never said I agreed with the spirit of the free market but its fair. If were writing cigar pass law here and cant do "If, Then', ands, buts". Its up to the discretion of the individual to do right. "If someone comes to me and says hey want in on the group buy? I get a free ashtray with it and id like to keep it is that cool?" "sure i don't care your doing the work" Is significantly different then getting a 5er of smokes that could be divided, again if,thens and, buts." As for the second part the community plays a role indeed but it comes down to the individual and there choice. If someone chooses to sell a 5er they got for free I wouldn't necessarily agree with it but I don't think they would deserve a lynching either. Take for instance if they payed more for said box to get the 5er dose the fact that it was "free" delimit what its worth? Again you can go on for ever. I guess the easiest thing to say to the community is:

"don't be a douche bag with your deals and you'll be fine"
 
CgarDan said:
First of a question to Wilkey:

How is a trade any different from a sale. In both cases you are getting something of equal value. Money in itself is nothing but a tool to trade goods or services. So what is the difference between selling an object for say $100 or trading for a good that is worth $100.
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Now that Wilkey's had a shot...

A trade and sale are different in that the purchase valuation of the traded 'for' product is unknown.
Equal value to whom?
Worth...to whom?

A cigar that has a value of $100 is worth less to me if it's not one that I enjoy(either for smoking or collecting).

One man's treasure... :)

'intrinsic value'
 
You guys are funny.

The premium is to make you spend more on your order and you're looking at it like it's a freebie.

It's not a freebie as much as it is an incentive to go even more in the hole. Now how is that free?

whatever....
 
That is why selling cigars is so hard. I only do this with people I both respect and trust. So if you do recieve those ten cigars smoke them yourself and enjoy the bargain you received. Better yet share them with your friends when you meet. I'm sure that as much as we debate this, someone will call BS on you and spoil your experience. That is my take on it as simplistic as it may be.

Now do I hear a GB?
 
tone-ny said:
That is why selling cigars is so hard. I only do this with people I both respect and trust. So if you do recieve those ten cigars smoke them yourself and enjoy the bargain you received. Better yet share them with your friends when you meet. I'm sure that as much as we debate this, someone will call BS on you and spoil your experience. That is my take on it as simplistic as it may be.

Now do I hear a GB?
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Wise council, sir.
 
If it's part of a group buy , it needs to be split evenly as possible between the group. If that can't be done evenly, then the math can be done to make it equal. If it's solo, there is no problem. You can sell, smoke, or give them away..... they are your sticks.
 
Mrepp said:
"don't be a douche bag with your deals and you'll be fine"
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I think this just about summed it up. :laugh:

As long as everyone is upfront and nobody tries to make a profit off of a fellow BOTL everything goes well. When somebody becomes an asshat and tries to make a buck off of one of us then there is a problem.
 
If it were a group buy of say, a box of 20 cigars and you get a fiver free... split up the fiver and keep the box for yourself... :sign:
 
tone-ny said:
That is why selling cigars is so hard. I only do this with people I both respect and trust. So if you do recieve those ten cigars smoke them yourself and enjoy the bargain you received. Better yet share them with your friends when you meet. I'm sure that as much as we debate this, someone will call BS on you and spoil your experience. That is my take on it as simplistic as it may be.

Now do I hear a GB?
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Requires a 4 box purchase ... I'll have to pass.

As everyone has stated, if it is a GB, all details should be known by the participants up front. Then you all can decide what the rules for distribution are ... maybe someone wants less of Robustos so they can have more of the VIs. It doesn't matter how you decide to split things up as long as the group is aware and agrees.

But all things have some sort of intrinsic value. Whether it is a trade of money, cigars, or time (like a contest), it depends on what one person is willing to give up to gain something else. And some things are easier to give up than other things, which changes from person to person, hence the bartering system started. (which BTW, is apparently illegal in the US ... go figure).

But the box of VIs have a market value (what you can find them for elsewhere), a weighted value (what value you place on them to sway you into purchasing 4 boxes), and an intrinsic value. People get all hot and bothered around here when there are ulterior motives, like hosting a GB to get a free box of VIs w/o disclosure to all involved. But basically you are getting 4 boxes on sale; it is just easier for the vendor to give out a box of VIs than give out a monetary discount. Plus the vendor is hoping to cash in on the weighted value for you being very high since s/he put traditionally highly valued cigars in as the bonus. In any event, if you purchased all 4 boxes yourself and got a free box, then it would seem fair to me to realize the sale by selling the box of VIs. Now if you resold all 5 boxes and made more money than than you spent, even if they are sold at a fair market price, you should call yourself a vendor and act accordingly. So, the previous comment about acting brotherly would be applicable here. This is where the community comes in to watch out for our fellow BOTLs and SOTLs, to keep the unknowing from being taken advantage of.

But if you feel the need to get rid of the box of VIs, LMK. :D
 
Disclosed up front by a Brother, I'd offer for him to chose on how to dispose - from keeping to doling them out. Let the Tone-NY rule prevail.
 
Rebel Herfer said:
This one IS simple - disclose up front about the freebie and allow only 10 slots. Here's the twist - offer one of the freebie cigars to each of the slotted buyers if they put their portion of the GB up front, if they don't or can't then the freebie stick goes to the GB Host. Plain and simple.
If it's an object (hmmm I don't know maybe an ASHTRAY), similar deal: each prepay gets a raffle ticket (host should get 2 maybe for the work) and a third party should draw for the item. Honestly, if its something like an ok ashtray, whoever wins should sack up and give it to the host. Otherwise take your own damn money and buy enough cigars ON YOUR OWN to get the GIFT with purchase or HOST one yourself.
I hope this is not the way people feel about the boxes on group buys - cause I figure the person doing the buy for a group gets to decide who gets the box, especially in small buys where one person fronts the money.

that's my $5.75!
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I guess nobody reads the previous posts, Probably why there was so much sh*t stirred up.
 
The freebies indeed have monetary value (their full list price).

This really is very simple and I think you're making it out to be way more than it is unless of course you're not providing us with all the details of what you're doing here (oh like say, a group buy).

Again based on your question which was this:

the vendor will toss in a 10 count box of VI for FREE.

Now, let's say you want to trade the VI, what methods would you use to implement the dispersal of the said product Does this 10 count box of VI have any monetary value at all based upon the price you paid for them?
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my answer is the correct one, your ten Siglo VIs are worth exactly what the list price is and the fact that you got them for free as a bonus is irrelevant.

Unfortunatley, I read on and then you start talking about:

How would you keep things fair between yourself and all the parties involved?
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which is where you lost me completely, what "parties involved?" Since you didn't come right out and say you're doing a group buy, I'm not considering that in my answer to your first direct question.

Please be more specific and stop beating around the bush and you'll get better answers.

Sorry but I find this thread rather annoying.....
 
This is a rhetorical question. Whether or not the deal exists is irrelevant, whether or not I am guaging interest for a group buy is irrelevant.


coventrycat86 said:
The freebies indeed have monetary value (their full list price).

This really is very simple and I think you're making it out to be way more than it is unless of course you're not providing us with all the details of what you're doing here (oh like say, a group buy).

Again based on your question which was this:

the vendor will toss in a 10 count box of VI for FREE.

Now, let's say you want to trade the VI, what methods would you use to implement the dispersal of the said product Does this 10 count box of VI have any monetary value at all based upon the price you paid for them?
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my answer is the correct one, your ten Siglo VIs are worth exactly what the list price is and the fact that you got them for free as a bonus is irrelevant.

Unfortunatley, I read on and then you start talking about:

How would you keep things fair between yourself and all the parties involved?
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which is where you lost me completely, what "parties involved?" Since you didn't come right out and say you're doing a group buy, I'm not considering that in my answer to your first direct question.

Please be more specific and stop beating around the bush and you'll get better answers.

Sorry but I find this thread rather annoying.....
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There are no details further than this. Any party involved could range from for example just myself, or myself and X amount of other people. How many are involved isn't the issue. The main objective of the scenario was to how would a person place value on goods acquired through this not so rare fashion.

You said the value of this particular box of VI should be the list price, so let's say for argument's sake the list price is $170. Now, if I were to trade them, would I trade them for their full list price? Would I sell them for their full list price? Technically, they aren't free, but then again, they ARE free. So wouldn't trading and selling them be a way of profiting off your fellow brothers and sisters?

Ethically, I should sell them for the same price as I got them for, and that for me falls under two ways:

total purchase value/110 cigars = average cost of each cigar. But let's say some cigars cost more than others, should I sell a VR unicos for the same price as a VR famoso? Should I go for the mean price and set it as that? Can I trade them for a cigar whose value equates to the average cost?

The other solution is to devalue them at $0 and gift them.

In a group buy, every 10 cigars nets you 1 VI. Every box nets you 2.5 VI But again, if the cigars are of different costs, and let's say person a buys robustos and person b buys torpedoes, it's obvious that person b spent more money, so shouldn't he recieve more VI? Again more questions.

Well, just some food for thought. Like I stated earlier, I don't like to be specific on this type of question because of its multifaceted qualities. One solution only brings more questions. And although you might find this thread annoying, it might be used to set a precedence for future transactions.


Oh, and if there is a group buy, I'm obviously not in it.
 
cohibasurfer said:
If it's part of a group buy , it needs to be split evenly as possible between the group. If that can't be done evenly, then the math can be done to make it equal. If it's solo, there is no problem. You can sell, smoke, or give them away..... they are your sticks.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
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