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Cabs vs Dressed Boxes and Aging

Ginseng

Banned
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
8,803
We're all aware of the "cab vs dressed box" debate insofar as which is better for longer term aging. The purpose of this post is not to rekindle this debate. Rather, I would like to propose an explanation as to why one should expect identical cigars stored in these two different containers to age differently. Specifically, why cabs are better for the long term. For the remainder of this post, I'll use the term "cab" to mean any cigar container, including slide lib box, that is composed of cedar or cedar plywood only with no significant paper covering or dressing. I will also use the term "box" to mean dressed box or any wooden container with surfaces that are substantially or totally covered in paper.

First, let me restate the orthodox understanding of why cabs are commonly believed to provide superior aging performance: solid wood walls reduce oxygen access to the cigars thus retarding aerobic chemical reactions involved in "aging" and that this lowered reaction rate results in a more favorable balance of reaction products and byproducts.

Basically, this supposition hinges on the fact that the wooden walls and seams of the cab provide a significantly greater barrier to air entry (and the water vapor and oxygen contained in air) than the corresponding features of a box. This transpiration will occur primarily by permeation diffusion through the wood walls as well as around the space surrounding the seams. It's important to note that even if you have a fan circulating air in your humidor, the seams are small enough so that the primary mass transfer route into the cab will be by diffusion and not through convection aided by air currents.

My assertion is that this orthodox belief is incorrect, or at the very least identifies a far less significant mechanism that one might believe.

Part one of my argument is this. There is no significant difference between air or oxygen permeation between the walls of a cab and the walls of a dressed box. I make this claim based on three linked pieces of information. First, the walls of a box are wood or plywood just as a in cabs. Second, the walls are of the same approximate thickness as in cabs. Third, the decorative paper on the faces of the box walls is light basis-weight plain or clay-coated packaging paper and not a high-barrier variety such as wax impregnated or polymer coated.

What the above three points suggest to me is that based on materials considerations, there is no evidence to support the supposition that the walls of a cab and the walls of a box provide significantly different barriers to diffusion transport of air, oxygen or moisture vapor.

While one might argue that the seams of a cab and a box are different, I would respond that they may well be in certain parts of certain cab-box comparisons but that this is also not believed to be significant.

The second part of my argument has to do with the suspected reason for differences in aging performance. The paper dress is the culprit. I make this claim based on my experience in the paper industry. Paper is not just chopped up and pressed wood fibers. Most general purpose paper, including industrial and product packaging, is acid process. Furthermore, in addition to the wood fibers, paper is filled with surfactants, starches (sizing agents), bleaching agents, latexes and other binders, minerals (for whiteness and cutting properties), brighteners, dyes and pigments. And then there are also all the inks used in printing. In other words, it is a reactive chemical mush. But the paper itself is not the only factor. Since it must be affixed to the wood in some way, one must also consider the adhesive used to glue the dressing to the wood. Is it starch based? Animal hide (unlikely)? PVA? Acrylic? Thermosetting or water soluble? Taking the paper/glue composite as a whole, it should become clear that the paper dressing is very likely a source of chemicals, reactants and reactions that could well be antagonistic to the natural maturation of pure tobacco.

But the real clincher is this. If you could somehow magically and completely remove the dressing and adhesive from a box, what remains is...you guessed it, a cab. A clear example of this comes from a consideration of the Partagas Serie D No.4 cab and the Ramon Allones Specially Selected box.

Well, what about foil-wrapped or glass jars? These are special types of packaging that do not have the potential contamination issues of paper and they do provide a significant reduction to diffusion permeation as compared to any wood packaging.

So, in the end, based on a consideration of the materials aspects of cabs and boxes, it makes sense to me that cigars stored in cabs would age better, if not more slowly and in an analogous fashion to cigars stored in dressed boxes.

What do you think?

Wilkey
 
Interesting stuff, Wilkey. Thanks for putting so much thought intot he topic. I hope to have good enough cigars aging for long enough to prove you right someday.
 
Personally I don’t think it matter that much but if you want to get more specific from a QA in the foodservice area I would agree with the cab over the dress box also simply because paper is a no, no. Especially one containing inks and dyes and of course adhesives. They tend to attract microbes ect, especially in a damp environment. Again I don’t think it affect them that significantly how ever.
 
I love the question and arguments but there are a couple of things that may be flawed.

1.) The plywood used in a cab (alternating layers) is not quite the same as what's under the paper of a dress box in the respect that the wood type is different and the orientation of the striations is also different. The grain of the wood on a cab is tighter which would prevent air penetration.

2.) The paper is more permiable than a varnish would be on a cab and the joints have varnish on them as well.

3.) The seams of the paper dress boxes tend to swell and contract more than the cabs. This swelling and contracting creates large gaps around the lid of the box.

I do however agree that the chemicals used to create the paper most likely have A LOT to do with the aging difference!

GREAT post Ginseng!

~M
 
Ginseng aka said:
What do you think?

Wilkey
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I think I'm gonna have to print this out and put under my pillow and sleep on it. Maybe I'll be able to understand the science through osmosis. Until then, it sounds like my glass top Cohibas are still o.k., right?

j/k Wilkey,

Actually you make sense, the difference between the two would be negligible for short term storage but it seems for deep sleep aging the paper (and all that comes with it) would play a part. I'm still not sure how much of difference it would make, though. Depending on the paper, adhesives, etc, the difference may still be indistinguishable.

Any other thoughts?
 
very nice post. I don't have experience with either, but i will be interested to see what others say
 
Fantastic post, Wilkey! I also wonder about what the best environment is for long-term aging of cigars.

My question is:

Is it determental to the aging process to simply remove cigars from their box (cab or dress box) and allow them to age in this manner?

I'd really like to hear your thoughts...
 
This makes a lot of sense to me. Great post Wilkey.

Now I know why Padron doesn't use paper covered boxes. (Even on his $2 cigars) ;)
 
Mrepp,
Excellent point about the microbes issue.

N2,
Let me take a crack at your points. Tell me if I'm on the button.
1. Commercial non-decorative plywood is skived. That means shaved off of a rotating log so it is all face grain. Rotation around an axis perpendicular to the face of a sheet of this type of plywood would not change the permeation characteristics of the sheet.

2. I suspect that you're correct that the varnish layer is less permeable than paper, however, SLB (such as the PLPC and SLR DC) are not varnished. Neither are the Partagas Serie D cabs. Remember, I am using "cab" to mean any wooden box that is not dressed in paper. This includes "wheel type" as well as "flat pack" cabs.

3. The seams around the top lid of boxes can gap due to warping of the wood in humidity and temperature conditions different from that at the time of manufacture. In my experience, boxes held at 60F+ and 70% RH rarely have warped lids. The boxes I have on display above my bookcases (64F and 40%RH) are almost all warped.

preembargo,
I think it's reasonable to assume that the effects are cumulative with time thus the more time, the greater the difference between identical cigars which are cab-aged and box-aged.

seadub,
Do you mean aging loose sticks in a cedar tray or some other open container in a humidor? There would be a lot more open space for sure. If there is air exchange in and out of the humi, I would expect that aerobic (oxygen required) aging reactions might be enhanced.

Jabba,
Right on!

Wilkey
 
Ginseng said:
preembargo,
I think it's reasonable to assume that the effects are cumulative with time thus the more time, the greater the difference between identical cigars which are cab-aged and box-aged.
[snapback]292281[/snapback]​

I see your point. I've never held on to a single for more than a few months much less a box or cab for any appreciable amount of time. I just wasn't thinking beyond my own experience. I hope someday to put your findings to the test.
 
Wilkey as always thanks for the analysis on the subject. My preference is always a cab as I feel they are better protected over the long term. Aging can be a problem as I also like to smoke and trade so I don't get to keep many long term subjects. As with any subject YMMV.

Harris or someone else may be better to state the long term issue with cigars that they have in their collection.
 
Pretty in depth analysis here, impressive.
Unfortunately most of my cigars come in bundles :( , so besides the JR Ults and Padrons, they basically sit in wooden trays.
 
No one has yet suggested that the fact that in a "wheel pack" cab of 50 sticks, 1) many cigars are not in contact with a wall and 2) there is airspace in the corners of the box where the wheel does not reach. One might reasonably guess that this airspace might be a factor in differential aging but I found some examples that do not necessarily support that idea.

Allow me to invoke the "MRN Clause." :p The following references are made in regards to "An Encyclopedia of Post-Revolution Havana Cigars" by Min Ron NEE.

On page 144: MRN compares the ERdM Panetelas Largas in flat-pack dressed box with and without cello and states that the "box with cellophane tastes much better."

On page 285: MRN compares the Quintero Churchills in flat-pack dressed box with and without cello and states again that the "cigars with cellophane taste much better."

and finally

On page 304: MRN compares the ERdM Grandes de Espana in flat-pack dressed box and flat-pack unvarnished SLB and states that the "cigars in the Slide Lid Box taste much better than the cigars in the Semi Plain Box." For this to be true, since the packing and airspace in both packages are identical, the difference must be due to a factor other than wheel versus flat. Based on the materials consideration, this factor is most likely the paper and glue.

Though this is one guy's opinion, albeit an influential and skilled guy, this tends to support:

1. Results of aging in undressed cedar boxes are better than dressed cedar boxes. (And I assert that this is due to the influence of the paper and not to an unsubstantiated supposition regarding the barrier properties of plain wood.)

2. Comparing cigars in dressed boxes, cellophane provides protection against deleterious interactions of the paper and tobacco. (Though not conclusive, it does not refute.)

Wilkey
 
Great post, I remember reading something akin to this in some obscure post when I first started reading about cigars.
 
So if you had the box of, say, a RASCC that is not wooden would you take them out and put them in a cedar box for long term?
 
Ginseng said:
N2,
Let me take a crack at your points. Tell me if I'm on the button.
1. Commercial non-decorative plywood is skived. That means shaved off of a rotating log so it is all face grain. Rotation around an axis perpendicular to the face of a sheet of this type of plywood would not change the permeation characteristics of the sheet.

True but if you look at a typical cab there are multiple layers of plywood set in offsetting directions. This offset would surely prevent overlaying openings given the number of layers they use.

2. I suspect that you're correct that the varnish layer is less permeable than paper, however, SLB (such as the PLPC and SLR DC) are not varnished. Neither are the Partagas Serie D cabs. Remember, I am using "cab" to mean any wooden box that is not dressed in paper. This includes "wheel type" as well as "flat pack" cabs.

True, I suspect that the corner gaps on an unvarnished box would allow for more air flow than an unvarnished but I know from making my blank cedar boxes that the corners are glued tightly as well as swelling from humidity would create a pretty darn good seal.

Also, as the wood of any box comes up to RH, it's pours will become full of water vapor which as we know, is a pretty good barrier against air flow.

The "wheel type", like the 8-9-8s were designed for air flow within the box, I think that the question posed is directed more towards air flow in and out of the box - this is correct?


3. The seams around the top lid of boxes can gap due to warping of the wood in humidity and temperature conditions different from that at the time of manufacture. In my experience, boxes held at 60F+ and 70% RH rarely have warped lids. The boxes I have on display above my bookcases (64F and 40%RH) are almost all warped.

I agree with this statement to some extent, however, once you open a dress box and crease the back flap, it never quite seals the same. I suspect this is because the lid is only "hinged" by a piece of paper.

Also, take a dress box and a wooden box and hold them against each other. The dress boxes are usually thinner on the sides by about 1/2 the thickness. (the fronts appear to be the same or similar thickness). In addition, when the paper is removed, the wood seems to be of some sort of inferior wood (I suspect beach) which is lighter. The lightness would be indiciative of a more pourous wood.

Back to the chemicals in the paper for a second. I would greatly suspect that covering the entire base box in an adhesive in order to apply the paper along with the chemicals used for the paper and for the dyes, would most likely impart some negative characteristics in to the smokes over a long period of time.

Every drink out of a plastic water bottle that has been sitting in a warm environment for even a few hours?

Great discussion bro!
~Mark
 
hudsonvalley said:
So if you had the box of, say, a RASCC that is not wooden would you take them out and put them in a cedar box for long term?
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For me? No. The reason why is because for me, "long term" aging means somewhere between 5 and 7 years. Boxes in this range, if well cared for and never allowed to get overhumidified, are at minimal risk for reduced performance relative to cigars stored in a cedar box.

If I had the means and desire to define "long term" as decades of aging, I would probably have the means to have custom cedar boxes made up to transfer cigars that are delivered in dress boxes. Knowing what I suspect now to be the case, this is what I would do.

I know this doesn't quite jibe with the vast history of those who have successfully aged stocks in dress boxes, but if what we are talking about is maximizing the beneficial aging of cigars, then this is one way to achieve that.

Wilkey
 
Mark,
Thanks for your comments.

1. There is no airflow through wood of this thickness no matter if it's totally desiccated or fully hydrated. Any through pores would allow liquid water on the surface to wick through via capillary action, as living wood is meant to do. But we're talking about moisture vapor and not bulk water.

2. Inside a quiescent box, wheel-cab or otherwise, there is no air "flow" to speak of in terms of the bulk movement of currents of air. There will, however, be molecular diffusion. This is the same process that allows an uncapped bottle of water to eventually empy out as the liquid water becomes vapor and then diffuses up and out through the bottle opening.

3. Right, the various side and top panels of boxes and cabs are all different thicknesses ranging from 3.3mm to 7mm as I've measured them. I will concede that dress boxes may be composed of inferior wood or wood laminates than cabs. However, in my estimation, the paper and glue are still the bad actors.

I think that an examination of the various kinds of packaging out there today can provide clues to what is going on. But what's missing is what we in science call the "killer experiment." In this case, to test the hypothesis that paper is a bad thing, one would have to secure an un-dressed dress box and a regular version and store and age cigars over the long term.

On the other hand, to test the "air space matters" hypothesis, one could simply take two wheels of Partagas Shorts, retain one in its original cab and place the other in a double corona cab and age them.

The test for "thicker walls are better" hypothesis is essentially embodied in cigars that are available in box/cab and tubos formats. I suppose one could put a smaller cab inside a larger cab and age that.

Ok, can my brain take a break now? I think I'm all out of neurons. :p

Wilkey
 
I'll bet that an unfinished cab has much less resistance to water vapor then a paper covered box. I also don't think that all boxes are just paper covered wood product of some type. A number of them are a pressboard construction which is much more vapor resistant ( to prevent swelling of the product).
 
So Wilkey, I take it based on your last post that you aren't in favor of one over the other?

~M
 
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