Aging Question #1. Congeners

[Ginseng]

The subject of congeners is one that sometimes comes up when discussing the aging potential of cigars. Of course other factors such as construction, blend, time frame etc. all contribute to the total picture. But my question is twofold.

1. How does one tell that your cigar has congeners?

2. How does one tell if your cigar has a lot versus a little congeners?

Thanks,
Wilkey

 

[JimK]

I guess the first thing would be to know what the heck a congener is, which I don't. ???

JK

 

[cigardawg]

The whole idea of "congeners" impacting aging is fairly theoretical. In fact, MRN was the first that I have seen discuss congeners in the context of aging potential of cigars. As for what a congener is, here is one definition:

Definition:

Congener is a term in chemistry that refers to one of many variants or configurations of a common chemical structure.

For example, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) occur in 209 different forms, or congeners. Each congener has two or chlorine atoms located at specific sites on the PCB molecule.

With that definition, the real question becomes...what chemical structures are there many variants and configurations of? Further reading suggests that there are both aromatic and non-aromatic (cyclical and non-cyclical) chemicals in tobacco (which there are). MRN suggests that variants of these chemicals break down as the cigar ages and forms the "pleasant" properties that we identify with good tobacco tastes.

Even MRN suggests that his explanation of aging is theoretical. However, it really is the best theory that I have heard. It actually makes sense as it is loosely based on how wine ages.

Sorry, forgot to address the second question :blush: . I think strength is going to be the best meter of congener content. However, all of the tobacco will have similar chemical structures, so it might not be which has more, but which has the right mixtures of the right ones. Following the theory, the tobacco would need to contain the "right" congeners to undergo chemical reactions to form "simpler" chemical structures that give the tobacco the tastes that we interpret as good. Hope that makes sense.

OK, there are my 0.02.

 

[Wurm]

I found it but I still don't understand it lol

(JK its not too hard to figure out what Ginseng is talking about)

Congener
Definition:
Congener is a term in chemistry that refers to one of many variants or configurations of a common chemical structure.


For example, polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) occur in 209 different forms, or congeners. Each congener has two or chlorine atoms located at specific sites on the PCB molecule.

´

cigardawg beat me to it lol :sign:

 

[PTownshend]

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but something about MRNs book has me perplexed.

There's something that I don't quite understand about MRN and his thoughts on aging a cigar. Out of a rating of 5, with 5/5 being the strongest, full bodied cigar and 1/5 being the mildest, MRN claims that if you age certain cigars they will increase in grade (i.e. page 181 - according to MRN, if you age an H Upmann Petit Corona after 8 years, the strength goes from 3/5 - within 0 to 8 years - to 4/5).

Ok, so if I get the theory of cigars becoming more "pleasant" as they age, how then does MRN mean that they become "stronger" in taste as they are aged ?

Am I the only one confused here? ???

Darren

 

[cigardawg]

Ok, so if I get the theory of cigars becoming more "pleasant" as they age, how then does MRN mean that they become "stronger" in taste as they are aged ?

Am I the only one confused here? ???

Darren

[snapback]247802[/snapback]​

I don't think pleasant and stronger are mutually exclusive. It also depends on whether MRN is talking about stronger as in full-bodied or stronger as in nicotine content (there is a huge difference). I am betting that he is talking about fuller-bodied, more flavorsome...not nicotine content.

Depending on the chemical reactions, the cigar could become more full-bodied as it ages. Not higher in nicotine content, but fuller bodied and more flavorsome. I think a good NC example is the original Diamond Crown. When new, I find this cigar to be mild and uninteresting. With a few years on it, I think it has good body, an abundance of flavors, and is very good.

Hope that helps.

 

[SeanGAR]

At least with wine, the flavors that can develop during storage are a combination of several things:

- release of nacent glycoside flavorings. They are not flavored as glycosides but are flavored as aglycones (free). You can't tell how much glycoside is there because you can't taste them. You need HPLC to quantify them.

- redox chemical changes that are impacted by oxygen concentration (in the ppm range) as well as time and temperature of storage (add humidity for cigars).

I imagine that cigars would be tough to define in terms of congeners as I don't believe that it is clear what they are and what the chemical reactions are that improve flavors plus the added complexity of pyrolysis. The information may be someplaces in an archive from a tobacco company, but I haven't seen this published.

 

[Ginseng]

PTownshend and Cigardawg,

You raise excellent points and questions. Let me comment then throw even more into the mix.

The other area where I have heard of congeners is in reference to wines. That is another natural product that contains a broad spectrum of related yet subtly different chemical compounds that contribute to the subjective perception of qualities such as flavor and body. In cigars as well as wines, this gemische is constantly changing, some would say evolving. And, not only do these vary in terms of their linear or cyclical nature, as CD notes, but also in terms of their saturation. Saturation being an attribute of chemical bonds that affects their reactivity, or how quickly and under what conditions (temperature, the presence of moisture or oxygen) these bonds will rearrange.

So, basically, you have a complicated soup that can change in ways that are nearly infinite in complexity and possibility. Thus the art inherent in a) determining the suitable raw materials (grapes or tobacco leaves) and b) blending them in combinations that are expected to result in a desired balance of characteristics at some point in the future. This last point is the roll of the dice. And it's a game of chance in which the odds are stacked by excellent quality of raw materials and deep experience on the part of the blender. Still, one never really ever knows with certainty what the result will be in 10 years, in part, due to the variations in individual storage and aging conditions.

Now back to my question of how to determine if a stick has a lot of congeners or a little. What I was thinking about was a simple diagnostic test that could be carried out, say with a lighter and a sniff, that could give a clue as to this attribute. Perhaps a characteristic scent or appearance on combustion of some tobacco. But now I am starting to question the wisdom of whether such a test is, in principle, even possible. This is a question I'd like to ask MRN. In fact, the last paragraph of SeanGAR's post is the nail in the coffin of this idea.

To PT's question, I'd echo what CD said. Strength, for me, is primarily the naked nicotine kick coupled with flavor elements that accentuate the perception of this. Harshness, brightness and intensity of sharp flavors. Body is a textural characteristic that is aided by softer, rounder notes. Flavorsome-ness is the third element I'd split out. For me, the core must always be the purity and completeness of tobacco. All else (nuts, beans, flowers, spices) is auxilliary to this and can only be meaningful when overlaid on a base of good tobacco flavor.

So, in my estimation, a cigar can start out fairly closed with a perception that it is thin and weak, yet over the years, it can develop the flavor support that will accentuate the perception of fullness, or flavorsome-ness or even nicotine. In a sense, it is the interaction between strength, body and flavorsome-ness that creates the overall impression.

And this brings me to my final point here. These assessments are all based on subjective experience. However much MRN or anyone else believes that repeatable and reproducible opinions can be made especially over the years, the fact of the matter is that sensory memory even when coupled with tasting notes can only be partial and imperfect indicators of the experience.

Wilkey

 

[emodx]

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but something about MRNs book has me perplexed.

There's something that I don't quite understand about MRN and his thoughts on aging a cigar. Out of a rating of 5, with 5/5 being the strongest, full bodied cigar and 1/5 being the mildest, MRN claims that if you age certain cigars they will increase in grade (i.e. page 181 - according to MRN, if you age an H Upmann Petit Corona after 8 years, the strength goes from 3/5 - within 0 to 8 years - to 4/5).

Ok, so if I get the theory of cigars becoming more "pleasant" as they age, how then does MRN mean that they become "stronger" in taste as they are aged ?

Am I the only one confused here? ???

Darren

[snapback]247802[/snapback]​

I think by ageing the cigar, you could actually burn more nicoteine in an aged cigar. I say this as a theory. It is plausible that there are molecules that bind with nicoteine. As the cigar ages, the compounds may break down or actually relase from the nicoteine molecule. Therefor the nicoteine would burn cleaner/fuller and more nicoteine would be realized in the gas/smoke. Just a theory.
-E

 

[moki]

Keep in mind that MRN is just a guy, and much of what is in that book are his subjective opinions. They are very learned, informed opinions, but they are just that... especially when it comes to taste, things are very subjective.