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3 Pricks, Giddy Asshats & a Flake pass

kiwifruit said:
Not the proposed puts, but too much over puts can make the pass too rich for the last folks in the lineup.
 
X2
 
Tall Paul said:
$4 over put for a Feral pig? DAMN am I the only one thinking that is very high. Yes they are somewhat hard to find but not that bad and they are still made. Its not like there was only a select # of cigars made and never to be seen again. 
 
Just one mans opinion,
Paul
 
Agreed.
 
Jonesy said:
It just depends on what he has to trade Paul.....he may not have something a little closer.  When you're looking at a higher priced cigar that has some rarity involved, than $4 over is well within the acceptability limit. Yea, they're still in production, but I can't just go to my B&M and grab a few, or go online and order a few. That's one of the factors I look at when approving trades in one of my passes.
 
BTW, I wasn't advocating adding $2 to each trade or telling people they should add an extra cigar in with their puts. I was just giving an example from my wealth of knowledge! :laugh:
 
I disagree Brian, since when does a pass participant's available inventory influence a P&T?
 
Also, just because DE doesn't release enough of these cigars due to tobacco availability (small batch syndrome) doesn't necessarily make it a "rare" cigar. The Pardon's higher end lines have a rich history of rare-ness based on consistent quality...the newer Ferel Flying Pig doesn't have that same documented history to make up the difference in price.
 
A $4.00 over PUT is excessive and what Kiwi mentioned is exactly why we shouldn't allow it...and the day we put any DE cigar in the same sentence as the Padron Family Reserve is a sad day. ;)
 
Okay Im late to the party but I also think a 4 bucks overput a bit too much. That being said CJ runnjng the pass so his fruity ass can make his decision on that one. Lol
 
I would agree with the masses and say the $4 over put might be a bit rich for that particular trade.
 
I personally don't see the Feral Flying Pig as a cigar that has rarity to warrant that large of an over put.  I would think $.50 would be more in line.
 
But, if the Master Giddy Asshat wants to approve, then it's his call.
 
 
 
Side note - Fjldo, don't let all of this discussion about your P/Ts make you think you are doing anything wrong.  We aren't trying to discourage you in any way.
 
2K6TBSS said:
I would agree with the masses and say the $4 over put might be a bit rich for that particular trade.
 
I personally don't see the Feral Flying Pig as a cigar that has rarity to warrant that large of an over put.  I would think $.50 would be more in line.
 
But, if the Master Giddy Asshat wants to approve, then it's his call.
 
 
 
Side note - Fjldo, don't let all of this discussion about your P/Ts make you think you are doing anything wrong.  We aren't trying to discourage you in any way.
 
Jeff,
 
The discussion is good, but yes, a little frustrating.  I'm certainly not upset with any members or the content, just with myself with not meeting expectations, so I'm beating myself up a little.  For whatever it's worth, I'll agree that the $4 over put is excessive, but I was encouraged :whistling: !
 
Took a critical look at the humidors last night and realized that for whatever reason, I lack cigars in the $10-$16 range.  I have plenty under $10 and quite a few over $18.  
 
I'm not discouraged and I'll keep plugging at it.  bluue13 said he was ready, so if it's OK with CJ, let him conduct his transaction and I'll follow.  Again, I appreciate everyones patience with me  :)
 
Frank
 
ironpeddler said:
Not the proposed puts, but too much over puts can make the pass too rich for the last folks in the lineup.
 
X2
 
Tall Paul said:
>$4 over put for a Feral pig? DAMN am I the only one thinking that is very high. Yes they are somewhat hard to find but not that bad and they are still made. Its not like there was only a select # of cigars made and never to be seen again. 
 
Just one mans opinion,
Paul
 
Agreed.
 
Jonesy said:
It just depends on what he has to trade Paul.....he may not have something a little closer.  When you're looking at a higher priced cigar that has some rarity involved, than $4 over is well within the acceptability limit. Yea, they're still in production, but I can't just go to my B&M and grab a few, or go online and order a few. That's one of the factors I look at when approving trades in one of my passes.
 
BTW, I wasn't advocating adding $2 to each trade or telling people they should add an extra cigar in with their puts. I was just giving an example from my wealth of knowledge! :laugh:
 
I disagree Brian, since when does a pass participant's available inventory influence a P&T?
 
Also, just because DE doesn't release enough of these cigars due to tobacco availability (small batch syndrome) doesn't necessarily make it a "rare" cigar. The Pardon's higher end lines have a rich history of rare-ness based on consistent quality...the newer Ferel Flying Pig doesn't have that same documented history to make up the difference in price.
 
A $4.00 over PUT is excessive and what Kiwi mentioned is exactly why we shouldn't allow it...and the day we put any DE cigar in the same sentence as the Padron Family Reserve is a sad day. ;)
 
It most certainly does influence a P/T if that's the only cigar he has in that price range to trade for what he wants.
 
It doesn't matter what the circumstances are behind why a manufacturer only puts out so many cigars, doesn't matter if Padron has a "rich history of consistant quality". What does matter is the availability of the cigars in question. To me, a Padron '26 #2 for the Flying Pig isn't a trade I'd allow. They both have the same price point at $16, but I can go into any B&M or go to just about any online retailer and get the #2....you can't do that with the Flying Pig. (just an example)
 
This has EVERYTHING to do with availability and NOTHING to do with what is thought of one line against another.
 
Rule of thumb for passes: Rarity/Rarity (or limited availability in this case) is how a pass trade works. If you can't meet rarity, then you have to over put with regular production or readily available cigars....and not just $.50.
 
It's common sense that a pass is going to increase over the course of time....it HAS to because you should never under put on a trade. When you join a pass, this is something that you need to take into account. If someone wants the GoF Carlito 2006, is everyone going to shoot down a Padron 80th for it since that's $7 more?? What if that's the only cigar that person has that's over $20 in value.....this is my point I'm trying to make. When you get in the high teens to the $20+ mark, you have to give some leeway in the trades due to the much lower production of those higher valued cigars compared to the $10 and under market..
 
fjldo said:
I would agree with the masses and say the $4 over put might be a bit rich for that particular trade.
 
I personally don't see the Feral Flying Pig as a cigar that has rarity to warrant that large of an over put.  I would think $.50 would be more in line.
 
But, if the Master Giddy Asshat wants to approve, then it's his call.
 
 
 
Side note - Fjldo, don't let all of this discussion about your P/Ts make you think you are doing anything wrong.  We aren't trying to discourage you in any way.
 
Jeff,
 
The discussion is good, but yes, a little frustrating.  I'm certainly not upset with any members or the content, just with myself with not meeting expectations, so I'm beating myself up a little.  For whatever it's worth, I'll agree that the $4 over put is excessive, but I was encouraged :whistling: !
 
Took a critical look at the humidors last night and realized that for whatever reason, I lack cigars in the $10-$16 range.  I have plenty under $10 and quite a few over $18.  
 
I'm not discouraged and I'll keep plugging at it.  bluue13 said he was ready, so if it's OK with CJ, let him conduct his transaction and I'll follow.  Again, I appreciate everyones patience with me  :)
 
Frank
 
Frank...please, PLEASE don't get frustrated over this discussion, this is a typical dialog during a Pass. As for expectations?...we have none for any member here. Just go with the flow and see this as an exercise in learning. You're not letting anyone down in any way, shape, or form. Never think this is aimed at you in particular, it's just a conversation where those involved express their opinions. There have been rules set down by previous Pass members and those rules are always discussed during every Pass.
 
Just go back through the list and see if there is a better fit. A good exercise I always practice is I value EVERY cigar on the Pass list myself. I print out the list, spend an hour or so getting 3 box prices on each vitola, establish the average price for each and write it next to each one. Then I go through my stock and do the same thing...but when I do my own stock, I put a small piece of paper with this average price inside of each box or bag I keep the cigars in so my stock is pre-valued to save time when I participate in my next Pass.
 
By doing this, you get much more familiar with all the different cigars out there and learn quite a bit during this process...and personally I find it a fun thing to do....we're playing with our toys cigars! :laugh:
 
Take a deep breath, take as much time as you need, and just re-figure the whole process. Sometimes you can't make a trade for that one cigar you really want to try...that's the breaks of each Pass. But keeping with the spirit and rules is the most important factor in any Pass rather that getting stuck on a single PUT & TAKE. But at the end of the day, this is supposed to be about making new friends, having fun, and learning new things about cigars for all those involved.
 
Like others have said Frank, don't get discouraged. This is how everyone learns. Everyone has differing opinions from their own experiences with passes, whether it was one they participated in, one they followed, or one they ran. The more discussion, the more knowledge gained by everyone!
 
I think the Padron 85th may seem like a bit of an overput, but while the Feral Flying Pig is regular production, it is a limited regular production.  The FFP is much more difficult to come by, not only in B&Ms, but online as well...and when you do find them the markup on them can be a bit ridiculous at times.  While I don't think the FFP is a cigar that is on par with a Padron 85th based on taste...I do feel that given the rarity, I'd be okay with the $4 premium.  I know many of you disagree, but I'm just presenting the noob opinion of this Giddy Asshat.  That said, it's CJs Pass and he should be the final arbiter, but it seems from what he's posted, he does appear to be okay with it.  Carry on...
 
One thing, and I'm just putting this out there because it's my opinion (feel free to disregard it), this is not a newbie pass.  If we are going to debate every single put and take over .50 here, or $1 there, this loses it's fun really quickly and becomes an annoying pain in the ass for everyone involved.   Yes, over puts happen. It's the nature of a pass.  I'm the one CJ was talking about who said "there might be an $8 cigar I can't get, and I have a stock pile of $12 sticks I would trade for it".   That's part of what passes are to me.  I can get opus/anejo/padron, etc.  Others can't.  I can't get Viaje because no shop around me carries them, and I'm not one to go in search of hard to find stuff because most of the time it ends up not being worth it.  With that said, I've never tried a Skull and Bones, but always wanted to.  If it makes it to me in this pass, I would be willing to over put just to have the chance to try one.  It would be no different than is Jonesy offered to trade me one, and said "send whatever you want in trade".  I'd probably dig out something rare/expensive for a chance to try something I can't normally get. 
 
I've done many passes, so the thrill of just trading to trade is gone for me.  Trading to get something I haven't had, can't get is what passes are about for me now.  Do enough passes and you will probably reach the same point.  Just make sure you're having fun with this, and not making it harder than it needs to be.   These should be enjoyable, not a 4 page discussion over every single person's put and takes.
 
Rant over.   ???
 
Ok... My noob 2 cents.
 
Firstly, I'll tell you I agree with Jonesy to an extent (in post #165).
I chose my position in this pass with the expectation the value would increase as well as the rarity.
It seems logical to me if a persons take is what he/she wants, the put must be at least equal, but ideally a bit over due to the good nature of the pass & it's host.
That being said, (the following statements may show my ignorance but...) I have seen in other passes where someone would double up on a take (2 for 1) in order to obtain what is wanted & insure fairness.
If the "taker" is willing to do this or put up a more valuable smoke, where is the harm as long as there not crap?
as thechenman just mentioned, this should ultimately have final approval from CJ, to ideally keep the banter to a minimum & have the pass move at a successful rate.
 
Again, this is my view out of logic & what I've read here & in other passes.
 
Thanks!!
 
It doesn't matter what the circumstances are behind why a manufacturer only puts out so many cigars, doesn't matter if Padron has a "rich history of consistant quality". What does matter is the availability of the cigars in question. To me, a Padron '26 #2 for the Flying Pig isn't a trade I'd allow. They both have the same price point at $16, but I can go into any B&M or go to just about any online retailer and get the #2....you can't do that with the Flying Pig. (just an example)
 
 
I rescind this part of my argument. Not a good point. If you have something that has limited availability, then you have to add a little value to it. Unless you trade something that is a top of the line cigar like a Padron, Opus, DCM, etc...then it should be an even trade.
 
BigBear said:
Ok... My noob 2 cents.
 
That being said, (the following statements may show my ignorance but...) I have seen in other passes where someone would double up on a take (2 for 1) in order to obtain what is wanted & insure fairness.
If the "taker" is willing to do this or put up a more valuable smoke, where is the harm as long as there not crap?
as thechenman just mentioned, this should ultimately have final approval from CJ, to ideally keep the banter to a minimum.
I've never seen a pass that allows 2 for 1, but ultimately I guess it's up to the pass host. 
 
As far as "crap", that's where passes can get tricky.  You and I may not consider the same cigars to be "crap".  As a pass host there are times you get stuck with a crappy cigar in trade, but based upon price,rarity, etc the trade his complete even and fair.  You can't approve puts/takes based upon what you like or don't like. 
 
Banter is the fun part about passes.  Fun banter, smart a$$ banter, friendly banter, making fun of Gary banter.  My point was more to endless debate over nit picky things.  Looking at every put and take and saying "well this off a quarter here".   Look at puts/takes this way:  If had cigar A would I trade it for cigar B.  I know for many of you this is your first/second/third pass, so I understand why the need to understand and clarify.  As you do more and more passes it becomes a gut feeling on puts/takes.  You just look at them and know if it's right or not.  I want all of you to get to that point, and I worry that endless debate and arguing over every single trade will make people think this isn't fun or worth the hassle.   If you have a Flying Pig would you trade it with a buddy for a Padron 80th?  What about the reverse?  If your answer is yes, then there is your answer for the pass as well.
 
There was a quick discussion in Gary's pass about a 2 for one, but when you take into account the lineup in that pass (granted it's solely at the hosts discretion) there may be a time or two when a 2 for 1 may be approve. Generally speaking though, a 2 for 1 isn't something that would even be brought up.
 
Like what's been said already, let's not take the fun out of the pass by nit picking everything that goes on. We can lean on the guys that are seasoned passers also....doesn't mean they're right, but they do have a little knowledge. Hell, I've probably run more passes and been in more passes than the rest of you guys combined minus Gary and Brent...but that doesn't make me right in what I say, it just means I have a little knowledge I can share with the rest of you.
 
Bsneed51 said:
Ok... My noob 2 cents.
 
That being said, (the following statements may show my ignorance but...) I have seen in other passes where someone would double up on a take (2 for 1) in order to obtain what is wanted & insure fairness.
If the "taker" is willing to do this or put up a more valuable smoke, where is the harm as long as there not crap?
as thechenman just mentioned, this should ultimately have final approval from CJ, to ideally keep the banter to a minimum.
I've never seen a pass that allows 2 for 1, but ultimately I guess it's up to the pass host. 
 
As far as "crap", that's where passes can get tricky.  You and I may not consider the same cigars to be "crap".  As a pass host there are times you get stuck with a crappy cigar in trade, but based upon price,rarity, etc the trade his complete even and fair.  You can't approve puts/takes based upon what you like or don't like. 
 
Banter is the fun part about passes.  Fun banter, smart a$$ banter, friendly banter, making fun of Gary banter.  My point was more to endless debate over nit picky things.  Looking at every put and take and saying "well this off a quarter here".   Look at puts/takes this way:  If had cigar A would I trade it for cigar B.  I know for many of you this is your first/second/third pass, so I understand why the need to understand and clarify.  As you do more and more passes it becomes a gut feeling on puts/takes.  You just look at them and know if it's right or not.  I want all of you to get to that point, and I worry that endless debate and arguing over every single trade will make people think this isn't fun or worth the hassle.   If you have a Flying Pig would you trade it with a buddy for a Padron 80th?  What about the reverse?  If your answer is yes, then there is your answer for the pass as well.
Gary's current pass... post #68 (page4)
 
I agree, was more coming from the endless debate aspect.
 
Great imput guys! I gues the difficult thing to do in a pass is finding a 'real price' as they can vary and I dont know how but some of you have great spots to shop online.
I rememeber putting up the paid in cuba prices for some sticks and some of the one I was looking for were sometime lower than a LCDH ! lol
 
I have to commend everyone for getting involved and discussing this. It's actually kind of fun for me to read through the discussions and see both sides of the argument.
 
First fjldo thank you for not letting this get to you, there is no need to get frustrated we are all here to look out for one another and that's all each other are trying to do. Secondly you may propose as many cigars as you would like, I have put no limitations on how many cigars can be traded by each member. I understand if all this has been off putting and you're just going to run with posted. Thirdly, no one is picking on you at all. We are merely discussing the "rules" and that normally happens at the start of the pass and by the 4th guy there is normally a clarification of all questions asked and it runs like champ.
 
I agree with the point made that overputting makes it hard for those at the end to compete. With that being said, the occasional overput isn't going to derail this pass, that's kind of the name of the game sometimes. I want it to be stated up front I never intend or encourage anyone to better my pass or for me to come out ahead at the end of the pass. That's not what a pass is about, but it sometimes happens. In my first pass, I sort of ate my ass with the pass list, being it was a "newbie" pass a lot of good cigars were not traded for cigars I found to be the same quality even though the price was the same. (Kind of like a $30 Gurkha for a $30 2001 Cohiba Lancero) The second pass I ran we had something very similar to this happen. Someone had paid around half of what the cigar was worth that he was putting back, what he paid was roughly the same dollar figure as what he took, but obviously that doesn't make his cigar worth what he proposing and I told him it was too much of a overput I wasn't comfortable knowing I made 200% on the trade. A discussion like this was had and his argument was solid, he had many of them, he wanted someone else to have the chance at having it especially at a great price and he really wanted the cigar in question. After 2 pages of discussion I realized it's ultimately his decision. I didn't and won't encourage anyone to drastically overput for any reason, but we are all adults here gentlemen. I also believe we shouldn't overput drastically on each and every trade because the afore mentioned complications it will cause to those at the end of the list. I know guys that would trade a high end Padron for a $8 Tatuaje Pork Tenderloin any day of the week.
 
As for multiples for one cigar I do discourage, seeing as though the cigars on the list vary from $4-$20 I don't think it there would be a valid reason to need to make up the difference in multiple cigars.
 
(I also hope you realize that my example of the Feral for the Padron 85th wasn't a ploy or telling you that's what you would need to trade to take the Feral. I was just letting you know that if you wanted a cigar and you either had cigars $2 less or cigars $2 more, then it's acceptable to propose a trade with the higher value stick.)
 
Being all adults here and you understanding that you are not required to trade the 85th for the Feral, if you would like to it's fine with me. I think the rarity factor of the Feral narrows the gap of the cigars, I definitely look at it as a overput, but not necessarily a $4 one.
 
That was WAY too civil of a response CJ!  :sign:  
 
 
You should have heard Gary and I on the phone the first 45 minutes debating the issue before we came to an understanding....it was ugly! :laugh:
 
This is why I follow passes....
 
I got an idea for contest brewing.......
 
Tim
 
Jonesy said:
That was WAY too civil of a response CJ!  :sign:  
 
 
You should have heard Gary and I on the phone the first 45 minutes debating the issue before we came to an understanding....it was ugly! :laugh:
 
 
Audio playback, or it didn't happen!  :p
 
Jonesy said:
That was WAY too civil of a response CJ!  :sign:  
 
 
You should have heard Gary and I on the phone the first 45 minutes debating the issue before we came to an understanding....it was ugly! :laugh:
Sorry my asshole dial wasn't turned all the way up today!
 
Have that crusty old man call me, I'll verbally abuse the asshat for ya'!
 
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