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When it's not alright to pass a "Cuban" cigar

moki said:
Ginseng said:
I carry out two kinds of (semi-blind) taste testing. The first type of tests that I engage in consists of someone sending me, for example, a "suspected" RASS. If I smoked it alone, I honestly wouldn't have much confidence in my assessment. But as I said, I do not smoke them cold. I smoke them side-by-side with a known, authentic cigar. That provides the basis for comparison. If you don't accept that, then I have no reason to accept that you buy all those Opus X that you do for any reason other than the fancy band. Certainly not on taste.
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Sure, that makes complete sense, and I agree with you.

Ginseng said:
But then again, perhaps I misinterpreted your statement as meaning "a taste common to ALL Cuban cigars" as opposed to "a taste common to any particular vitola."
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Right, that's what I meant. "A taste common to ALL Cuban cigars" which I wrote responding to mmburtch's claims of:

"What wasn't there however was the flavor of a Cuban" (What does this mean, exactly? It implies there's a flavor that should be present in any cigar from Cuba, which I think is bunk.)

"I have a fairly good ability to discern the proper flavor in Cuban tobacco" (Which implies being able to pick out any old tobacco as being Cuban or not Cuban, which again I think is bunk.)

Again I think it's perfectly possible for someone who smokes a lot of, say Cohibas and Bolivars, to be able to know the taste profile of those cigars well (but that's still more difficult than it seems, witness Petecaps thinking the Bolivar Belicoso Fino was an Opus X). However the claims of being able to tell a "Cuban" from a "non-Cuban" I've yet to see born out at all.

Give people a few Cuban cigars they aren't familiar with, or some non-Cuban cigars they might mistake for Cuban cigars they've had, and it all falls apart. Which supports my original point.

There is no "Cuban cigar taste" -- "Cuban cigar" means exactly one thing: the cigar was made in Cuba.

It says nothing else about the quality, or the taste of the cigar. There are a wide range in tastes in cigars from Cuba, and there's no common profile that they all share that I can discern... or in blind taste testing that it seems anyone else can either.
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moki said:
And no, I don't agree it's a 50/50 proposition... if someone is going to make a claim that a cigar "tastes like a Cuban" then they are the ones who are setting the stage for my beef by being careless with their words. If they believe there's a "Cuban taste" then they damn well better do better than a coin-flip at picking it out, or they should stop using such broad terms.
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I'm glad to be able to provide such good debate for you two. :blush:

I don't know if its a taste, a feel or a smell, but there is something I experience when smoking a cuban cigar that I don't recall noticing with cigars from other regions. Does that "something" truely exist, or is it a figment of my imagination? It could be either and it really doesn't matter since I garner enjoyment from it.

And your right, I shouldn't use such broad terms.
 
Ginseng said:
You still seem to be confusing the fact that in principle, the test can return a no better than 50/50 result in region E with a person's certitude about their ability to assign a Cuban or not Cuban national origin to an unknown cigar. We're speaking at cross purposes.
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If I tell you that I can identify the smell of French perfume anywhere... and then you do a test where I smell perfumes from various origins, you think it's reasonable that I should score no better than a monkey flipping a coin? What you're saying, essentially, is that I was full of shit in my initial assertion that I could identify the smell of French perfume... and thus are proving the point I've been trying to make.

The point you've been trying to make, well, that's your problem. :)

And I see you've pulled out the good old wine scores again. Andrew, scoring higher or lower has nothing to do with identification. Again, apples and oranges. The only situation where comparing scores and identification are even close to the same thing is if score is expected to correlate with something like national origin. I can see that maybe that was the expectation in the wines tests, but let me ask this...in those wine tests, were the tasters asked to guess whether the wine was French or not French?
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Actually, yes, they did. Read the full article... many of the sommeliers were utterly SURE that the wonderful wines they've given the top spots to were French in origin. Thus the whole mortification thing.

But you're right, this is rather tangental to the argument. I just tossed it in as a analogy bonus. :)
 
mmburtch said:
I don't know if its a taste, a feel or a smell, but there is something I experience when smoking a cuban cigar that I don't recall noticing with cigars from other regions. Does that "something" truely exist, or is it a figment of my imagination? It could be either and it really doesn't matter since I garner enjoyment from it.
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Let's find out the answer for you. I will send you 10 unbanded cigars in numbered baggies. You smoke the cigars, review them, give your impressions, and then tell me whether the cigar is Cuban or non-Cuban.

Are you game?
 
Hey A,

You and I are addressing two different points. If we can't decide on the point of argumentation, then this is interesting, maybe even edifying, but not resolvable.

BTW, you're still not getting it, but that's ok. :p

Wilkey
 
moki said:
mmburtch said:
I don't know if its a taste, a feel or a smell, but there is something I experience when smoking a cuban cigar that I don't recall noticing with cigars from other regions. Does that "something" truely exist, or is it a figment of my imagination? It could be either and it really doesn't matter since I garner enjoyment from it.
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Let's find out the answer for you. I will send you 10 unbanded cigars in numbered baggies. You smoke the cigars, review them, give your impressions, and then tell me whether the cigar is Cuban or non-Cuban.

Are you game?
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Ok Moki, I'll probably kick myself, but I like a good challenge.

First things first. I had my nose fixed two weeks ago today, and just in the last day or two have been able to smoke with any semblence of pleasure. I'm thinking it will be a week maybe two before I feel that I'm "healed" enough to do this.

Second, If you want this to be remotely scientific, I would ask that the selection be random. In other words, don't hand pick the cigars with this tasting in mind.

Sound fair?
 
Don't do it, Matt.

The challenge, as formulated, proves nothing at all of consequence. If you'd like 10 cigars to smoke, then take it on. Just understand that neither you nor anyone else could possibly learn anything from this.

Wilkey
 
Ginseng said:
Don't do it, Matt.

The challenge, as formulated, proves nothing at all of consequence. If you'd like 10 cigars to smoke, then take it on. Just understand that neither you nor anyone else could possibly learn anything from this.

Wilkey
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You're right of course. That's why I asked for the second condition. I don't care what he sends, 10 NC, 10 ISOM or some combination. I just don't want a stacked deck designed to prove a point. I don't think Andrew would opperate this way, but he appears to be quite pasionate about this subject, and we all know pasions can get in the way.

The part of this challenge that I'm not sure how to avoid are physical characteristics that will play into my assesment, whether I want them to or not, such as construction and ash color.
 
Okay, very interesting but I have to agree that I have found a particilar taste profile in "certain" Cuban cigars, after reading all of the discussion I'll be much more careful in my choice of words. The first Cuban cigar I ever tasted had a very particular taste to it, I think I even described it as soapy or perfume in the mouth, but after having smoked a few more Cuban cigars I must admit that the "soapy" taste which I've classified as a Cuban cigar taste is not found in all Cuban cigars. I have found it in a few different producers now but perhaps what I am calling a Cuban cigar taste is more terroir driven rather than Coutry of origin.

:cool:
 
Ginseng said:
Well,

You still seem to be confusing the fact that in principle, the test can return a no better than 50/50 result in region E with a person's certitude about their ability to assign a Cuban or not Cuban national origin to an unknown cigar. We're speaking at cross purposes.
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First, we'd need to accept that there even is a "region E"... which is something of your creation, but...

You're still not getting it either, Wilkey. If someone tells me they know the taste of a "Cuban cigar" and can tell the difference between a Cuban cigar and any other cigars in the world, then there is no region E by their own definition. Cuban cigars are a thing unto themselves.

Get it?

And the test does indeed prove something... it proves that you're correct, there is overlap in taste profiles, and it proves that I'm correct as well... that people who claim to be able to distinguish cigars by country of origin are full of it.

I think what you're not getting is if we assume your "region E" mammogram is accurate, then we're assuming that I'm correct in my assertions as well.
 
Ginseng said:
Don't do it, Matt.

The challenge, as formulated, proves nothing at all of consequence. If you'd like 10 cigars to smoke, then take it on. Just understand that neither you nor anyone else could possibly learn anything from this.

Wilkey
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...wrong. As formulated, the challenge determines whether someone can pick out the country of origin of any given cigar with reasonable accuracy. A 50/50 result, if the entrant goes into it believing he can indeed discern the country of origin of a cigar by taste, should be considered abject failure, not "the best that anyone could do".

There is no "region E" if you're in the camp that claims they'd "Know Cuban tobacco anywhere" or "There's that certain taste in all Cuban cigars".
 
Anyone would be lucky to get 50% correct, you should heed my warning and just walk away. With all the cigars that are out and discontinued from all different countries, there is no way you can tell which country the majority of tobacco is from. A well aged Opus X ( 95-97) does not taste anything like a Dominican Puro.

Walk Away and agree to disagree even if you're wrong lol :sign:
 
MindRiot said:
Anyone would be lucky to get 50% correct, you should heed my warning and just walk away. With all the cigars that are out and discontinued from all different countries, there is no way you can tell which country the majority of tobacco is from. A well aged Opus X ( 95-97) does not taste anything like a Dominican Puro.

Walk Away and agree to disagree even if you're wrong lol :sign:
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I concur. Which gets back to my original comment that talking about "the taste that only a Cuban cigar has" or "the taste that all Cuban cigars have" is meaningless if one cannot discern the difference between arbitrary Cuban cigars and arbitrary cigars from elsewhere.

I agree it's a fool's errand, and Wilkey and I actually agree as well even if we're being pedants about why. There is a "region E" and Cuban cigars are not a "thing unto themselves".
 
Hah wow thats a lot more intelligent input here then I expected. The only thing I would offer up is there does seem to be a common profile with farm rolls/custom rolls. The barnyard taste/small seems to be significantly more prevalent then blended factory made cubans. There have been some NC's that offer a hint of this profile but they are few and far between.
 
Andrew and Wilkey..............please, will both of you just shut up and get back to your respective porn careers! ??? :laugh:

Really good information from both of you guys and well argued/articulated as well. I have to admit, I was in the "I can tell what a cuban tastes like" camp until recently. I had an unbanded Fundadore from '98(did not know it beforehand) and I could have sworn it was a cameroon wrapper cigar. I honestly thought it tasted like a Litto cabinet smoke! It was a very good smoke, just nothing like I expected it to be.

I would be shocked to get 50% correct in a blind tastes test.
 
Ginseng said:
Well,

I'd be happy to take this up at a herf sometime, but Andrew, you're still wrong :p Or at the very least we're talking at two different things.

I see a couple of points I could rebutt, but I'll leave go for the harmony of our fine community. A, I don't concede my points but I will table them for now.
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Ditto, porn boy!

Now, I have to share an experience that is related to this whole dustup. Lately I've been smoking Cubans almost exclusively. This weekend I just got to the point where I wanted something really different. Know what I lighted up? A Tatuaje Noellas. Yep, one of the cigars sometimes referred to as among the most "Cubanesque" of non-Cuban cigars. The Noellas really delivered a wake-up experience. I remember thinking to myself "wow, what different flavors, there's no way anyone could mistake this for a Cuban.
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...and here you're making the same mistake again. Mistake the Noellas for what Cuban cigar? For a "Cuban cigar in general"? What does that taste like, exactly? Sigh... you can lead a horse to water....

And yes, I have seen many people who mistake a non-Cuban cigar for being Cuban when given one in a blind taste test. It happens all the time.

Who knows. In the pleasure of smoking, it's not about national origin but what need a cigar fulfills, and how well it fulfills that need. That night, the Noellas hit the spot far better than any Cuban I'd smoked in the last two weeks. Well, except maybe potentially for the new RASS. Those are just ass-kicking good!
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The point you're missing is that national origin does matter, because when it comes to taste, expectations have a huge influence. The meme is that Cuban cigars are the best in the world, just as the meme was that French wines were the best in the world.

If I hand you a cigar, tell you it is Cuban, and you have a young, impressionable mind, you'll be more inclined to enjoy the cigar. This is why blind taste tests are so important, you take the pretension factor out of the equation altogether.
 
moki said:
Ginseng said:
Well,

I'd be happy to take this up at a herf sometime, but Andrew, you're still wrong :p Or at the very least we're talking at two different things.

I see a couple of points I could rebutt, but I'll leave go for the harmony of our fine community. A, I don't concede my points but I will table them for now.
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Ditto, porn boy!

Now, I have to share an experience that is related to this whole dustup. Lately I've been smoking Cubans almost exclusively. This weekend I just got to the point where I wanted something really different. Know what I lighted up? A Tatuaje Noellas. Yep, one of the cigars sometimes referred to as among the most "Cubanesque" of non-Cuban cigars. The Noellas really delivered a wake-up experience. I remember thinking to myself "wow, what different flavors, there's no way anyone could mistake this for a Cuban.
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...and here you're making the same mistake again. Mistake the Noellas for what Cuban cigar? For a "Cuban cigar in general"? What does that taste like, exactly? Sigh... you can lead a horse to water....

And yes, I have seen many people who mistake a non-Cuban cigar for being Cuban when given one in a blind taste test. It happens all the time.

Who knows. In the pleasure of smoking, it's not about national origin but what need a cigar fulfills, and how well it fulfills that need. That night, the Noellas hit the spot far better than any Cuban I'd smoked in the last two weeks. Well, except maybe potentially for the new RASS. Those are just ass-kicking good!
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The point you're missing is that national origin does matter, because when it comes to taste, expectations have a huge influence. The meme is that Cuban cigars are the best in the world, just as the meme was that French wines were the best in the world.

If I hand you a cigar, tell you it is Cuban, and you have a young, impressionable mind, you'll be more inclined to enjoy the cigar. This is why blind taste tests are so important, you take the pretension factor out of the equation altogether.
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I can see this going on till the both of you are old and gray! Taste great, less filing.
 
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